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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Ara Ararauna on May 25, 2013, 11:21 AM



Title: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 25, 2013, 11:21 AM
Lately I have been able to start doing some new tricks such as the flair to fade, the Slot Machine, sort of a backspin...

This has been after trying all sorts of pulls and pops and getting some results sometimes, but a lot of frustration most times.

I have noticed that more expert pilots usually use these terms (pop & pull) in a very loose way when trying to explain a trick to a newbie like me.
Therefore, these become terms that sound so general and unspecific that one doesn't really know how to do them when trying the tricks out on the field.
So I think we should always provide an adjective or short extra detail to make them more specific.

For example, when I want to do a flair to fade, if I flair the kite and then pop towards me or pull towards me I get no (or very bad) results. Plus I have to do a huge effort.
On the other hand if I flair the kite and then I pull down by moving my arms quickly down and towards the sides of my body, I then get much better results. And need less effort.

Another example, if I want to do a Slot, I first give a sort pop (as if starting a half axel) and then I give a sideways pop in the opposite direction that the kite is flying.
I think these extra characteristics of the pops and pulls are very important and would be very useful for us newbies.

So I wanted to know how you more expert flyers see this and whether you would be willing to do the exercise of thinking about the specific ways in which you pop or pull and use this extra information when helping us beginners.
Thanks!
 :)


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: vertigo2u on May 25, 2013, 12:42 PM
Excellent question Ara...

I am always confused by the terms.. But I also use the terms loosely.  There are two ways of flying also.  i.e. when doing simple box turns. Some guys pull on one line others sort of push the other line thus I think we get terms like push turns or pull turns.  Jon T taught me Pull turns that is... When I am flying from the left to the right. and I make my first turn up.. I pull my right hand towards myself.  By giving a tiny tiny tiny bit of slack and a quick tug of my left hand I am able to make the turn snap and a air popping sound happens with the sail.  These are pull turns.

So for us beginners as what I have been taught. Terms like Pop and Pull  are sometimes used to describe something many beginners haven't learned yet.  Pop is referred to getting air out of the sail.   But that is done only by snapping the right, left and right lines towards oneself quickly causing the kite to dump air and make a  Pop sound.

Some tricks require one to Pop the sail before or doing the trick.  i.e. doing a stall or a snap stall one has the Pop the sail to make the kite stop.  Pop is referring to the process of tugging the lines towards oneself with a right then left and right again quick motion.

Now after writing all this one needs to appreciate the work a guy like Norm does with his trick challenges.  Norms shows how to do the tricks he knows from a beginners  perspective.  I haven't filmed four AVFFF's but I learned from a everyday guy rather from a trick artist which I have around me.

There are No video's teaching a snap stall for beginners and explaining what is involved in the technique and explain the terms.  From a beginner who  figured the trick out.  It would be nice if More everyday guys posted to help others.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 25, 2013, 01:50 PM
Right Vertigo, but whether you pop/pull or others push, my point is that these pops/pulls and pushes go unqualified.

What I am proposing is to say HOW to pop/pull or push.
Because each trick or part of a trick needs a different way of popping/pulling or pushing.
It is this difference which I think would be extremely valuable to describe always.
Don't you agree?
Cheers!
 :)


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: John Welden on May 25, 2013, 03:34 PM
I'd say it all depends on the trick, wind conditions and kite.  (And flying style)

A lot of times you can't really pop from a flair to a fade with an SUL. You have to gently guide it.

In higher winds with normal kites, you can be aggressive and pop most tricks if you want to.

Bottom line, you have to practice and figure out what works for your kite and the wind conditions. If you keep at it you'll just automatically know what to do after a while.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: adx1592 on May 25, 2013, 03:39 PM
I'd say it all depends on the trick, wind conditions and kite.  (And flying style)

A lot of times you can't really pop from a flair to a fade with an SUL. You have to gently guide it.

In higher winds with normal kites, you can be aggressive and pop most tricks if you want to.

Bottom line, you have to practice and figure out what works for your kite and the wind conditions. If you keep at it you'll just automatically know what to do after a while.

+1. When people talk about dead spots in flic-flacs, odds are that concept needs to be implemented.

JW's right tho, the terms are basically just guidelines, it all depends on the person or the kite. Or both.


Title: Re: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: DD on May 25, 2013, 04:44 PM
Speed and intensity are what seperate a "pop" from a sweeping "pull". It can very wind speed dependant and levels of each needed from kite to kite can also vary. Videos are good but it can be tough to judge wind speed on them. Plus you want to see what the kite is doing along with the flyer.
Get all of those measurements and your golden.;D


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: vertigo2u on May 25, 2013, 07:10 PM
I think the concept here is What does POP or Pull mean.  Not when to apply it.  And what does it mean when applying it.  The terms are loose.  What one persons means by pop or another means by pull is different...


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: chilese on May 25, 2013, 07:45 PM
If you can hear the sail during a tug, it's a Pop.

I refer to Pop inputs as IMPACT.

Force without distance, grasshopper.  :)



Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: tpatter on May 25, 2013, 08:09 PM
I think it's all pop.  The only thing I think of as a pull is the backspin input and you can just pop there as well.

The key thing to remember is to  almost always release tension on the other, non input hand.  Exceptions are yoyo, flick flack, not much else I can think recall at the moment.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 25, 2013, 11:34 PM
Hmmm... thanks for the comments but I think I'm not getting trough with my concept.

I realize some kites and some wind conditions might need different strengths or speeds. This might indeed differentiate a POP from PULL.

What I'm trying to get through is the idea of differentiating one POP from another POP, or one PULL from another PULL.

In other words, given a fixed kite, a fixed wind condition, a fixed trick and even a fixed part of a trick, I think that saying "pop the right line and then give slack" is too vague.
This is why I was giving the example of the Slot.
You can say: "When flying the kite right to left, pop your top wing (right hand) as if starting a half axel while giving slack to bottom wing (left hand). Then immediately pull the top wing (right hand) to start rotation and quickly give slack to both lines. Finally gently pull away both lines to exit trick after full rotation."

Here the "pop" is qualified by describing it is similar to the half axel.
The second "pull" is qualified by saying "pull away".
However, the first "pull" is not qualified and I think it is one of the crucial points of the trick.

It has taken me time to discover that this "pull" should not be towards my body, but rather sideways, away from my body.
So I think it would be much more useful that this part of the description would read:
"... Then immediately pull the top wing with your right hand with a lateral movement from left (hand close to your body) to right (hand away from body) to start rotation,..."

So I guess the qualification I am talking about refers to direction and body motion needed (which I think are a constant regardless of wind conditions) rather than strength or abruptness (which do change depending on wind conditions).

Maybe what I'm trying to put through is one more of my nerdie, crazy scientist, sort of disquisitions...  :P  ...but I really think that this helped me understand how to do some tricks and thought it could help others too.
 :)
Cheers!



Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: alien on May 26, 2013, 03:20 AM
Good question ARA,
POP is the sound of the explosive cartridges on the upper APA SPREADERS ejection SYSTEM.
N
PULL is what it does to the EJECTION HANDLE when it sees me on the end of the strings!


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 26, 2013, 04:26 AM
Good question ARA,
POP is the sound of the explosive cartridges on the upper APA SPREADERS ejection SYSTEM.
N
PULL is what it does to the EJECTION HANDLE when it sees me on the end of the strings!
Wow, you really are alien!    ;)


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: RobB on May 26, 2013, 05:44 AM
Ara, for me, I can think about & visualize the tricks for hours at home, but once I step onto the field and pick up the lines, my mind goes blank. Most of my flying comes from feel, not thinking about whether I'm popping or pulling.
I know you're in the same boat as me with no one to fly with or act as an instructor. It's just a time thing. I couldn't describe any better than a pop or pull, but like JW said, the definitions of those words is highly depenant on the conditions & kite.
Good luck !


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Allen Carter on May 26, 2013, 07:51 AM

It has taken me time to discover that this "pull" should not be towards my body, but rather sideways, away from my body.
So I think it would be much more useful that this part of the description would read:
"... Then immediately pull the top wing with your right hand with a lateral movement from left (hand close to your body) to right (hand away from body) to start rotation,..."



The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body. It only cares about the amount and force (and speed and duration, and acceleration) of the line moving away from it. Unless you were on very short lines (like 10') the sideways or lateral motion of the hands has no affect. All it does is reduce your range of motion.

Range of motion is very important. The main reason folks tend to do slack line tricks with their hands at their sides is the much greater available range of motion. With hands in front of your body and close together you can generally fly with more control, but go to pop or pull or whatever to initiate a slack line trick and you could hit yourself in the chest. In the old days we called these cross body chest thumps while trying to learn axels "roman salutes"   :)

With your hands able to move way behind you and extend all the way in front, you can move a lot more line. When you take into account the range from one hand forward and the other hand back, you've really got a lot to work with.

The further your hands get from your sides (further apart) the harder it is to find a center, or neutral position. It ends up being a lot of wasted motion (and time) in a game where quick, intentional, movement of your hands is key.

As for "pop" or "pull", I'd consider what the kite needs to initiate and complete a move rather than what your movements should be. Type of kite? Is the kite stalled or flying? Center or edge of window? Light or strong wind? Is momentum needed to carry the kite through the move, or are you just moving the kite into a new position or transition? Thinking about what kind of input the kite needs is the way to go. I used to use a small kite in my hands to better understand what parts of the kite are affected by what inputs. Visualizing the wind pressure as the kite moves through a trick.

But, all the brain time is not nearly as effective as just flying. Just do it. Over and over and over. Your hands will figure out what works. You just need to know what you are asking the kite to do.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: lylenc on May 26, 2013, 08:03 AM
Descriptions of pull/pop are difficult to describe and they mean different things to different people. Inputs also vary as one moves through the learning curve for a trick. Pulling away from your body rather than towards it dampens the strength of the pull of the wing towards you. As you gain experience with a new trick, inputs become more efficient and lighter. The timing is fine tuned. No sideways pull/pop is required, just use a lighter straight pull/pop than used with the sideways motion and applied at the right time.

Pulling sideways is similar to leaning sideways to guide a ball after it's already in the air - body english. As always, it comes down to personal preferences and flying styles (more or less flail). Most of us flail initially and we become much smoother as the trick and kite become a part of us - not having to think about it.

(While I was typing, the post ahead of me said the same thing. I'll post this anyway in case a different way of saying it makes sense to someone. I used to be a cross-chest thumper and have knocked my glasses off and punched my nose before.)


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Allen Carter on May 26, 2013, 08:12 AM
I used to be a cross-chest thumper and have knocked my glasses off and punched my nose before.

Yup, I've snagged my headphones and yanked them out of my ears more than once too.  ???  :D

Restating something in different words is very often helpful.

This is all normal developmental stuff, but understanding the benefits of form are helpful, even when it's the last thing on your mind when just trying to figure out how to make the kite do something.

It's been a decade since I spent much time learning tricks (more of an old skool flyer), but paying attention to good form always helps when I'm learning (usually re-learning) some move,


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: jecko on May 26, 2013, 08:41 AM
POP is when I'm doing most tricks especially in crazy copters and Yofade
PULL is trying to launch Cosmic TC or TNT zero to fade from flair position off the ground.  ;D


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 26, 2013, 11:34 AM
OK, so I see this is one more of my nerd proposals related to getting more info on the tricks of the tricks (if you get my meaning).

However, I do not agree with Allen's comment on:
"The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body."
I know you have much more experience than I do, but think about the following.
Imagine you have the kite flying right to left at a relatively high trajectory and it is passing right in front of you at the center of the window.
If you pull the right line towards you (top wing), I state that you are pulling both the uphaul and the outhaul simultaneously (actually a bit more the outhaul).
Whereas if you pull the right line by moving your arm from left to right (i.e. in the opposite direction that the kite is flying in), I state that you will be only pulling the uphaul.
And I would state that this is the case even when apparently you are "too far a way" from the kite to have any effect.

I have checked this by taking any of my kites in my hands and simulating in slow'mo the two pulls.
With only a very slight change in the angle of the pull, the effect on the two legs of the bridle changes significantly.
Also I have tried this in flight and the kite does different things if you pull one way or the other...

This is what I was trying to make people conscious about.

Now, I accept that there are so many subtleties in a flying kite that this is difficult to generalize.

So, I close the topic here (one more of my failed crazy scientist proposals  ::)  ) and I will go back to my lonely flying field and figure out tricks on my onw (sounds dramatic, doesn't it?  ;)  :D )


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: jecko on May 26, 2013, 05:55 PM
Don't be disheartened, Ara.

Play around with your kites and see what works best for you and your kite.
Don't think too much, free your mind and enjoy your flying.
If you trying too hard chances are you'll leave the field early and if you try to digest too much you'll burnout.

Happy Flying. ;)
Ian.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: John Welden on May 27, 2013, 01:28 PM
OK, so I see this is one more of my nerd proposals related to getting more info on the tricks of the tricks (if you get my meaning).

However, I do not agree with Allen's comment on:
"The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body."
I know you have much more experience than I do, but think about the following.
Imagine you have the kite flying right to left at a relatively high trajectory and it is passing right in front of you at the center of the window.
If you pull the right line towards you (top wing), I state that you are pulling both the uphaul and the outhaul simultaneously (actually a bit more the outhaul).
Whereas if you pull the right line by moving your arm from left to right (i.e. in the opposite direction that the kite is flying in), I state that you will be only pulling the uphaul.
And I would state that this is the case even when apparently you are "too far a way" from the kite to have any effect.

I have checked this by taking any of my kites in my hands and simulating in slow'mo the two pulls.
With only a very slight change in the angle of the pull, the effect on the two legs of the bridle changes significantly.
Also I have tried this in flight and the kite does different things if you pull one way or the other...

This is what I was trying to make people conscious about.

Now, I accept that there are so many subtleties in a flying kite that this is difficult to generalize.

So, I close the topic here (one more of my failed crazy scientist proposals  ::)  ) and I will go back to my lonely flying field and figure out tricks on my onw (sounds dramatic, doesn't it?  ;)  :D )


If you were flying on a 75 foot line set and you pulled one line to the side 3 feet, it would create about a 2 degree angle.  Not enough to do anything useful.

If your lines are twisted, any angle you create is canceled out.


Title: Re: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: trigger on May 27, 2013, 02:45 PM
Ok, so i think i have lesrned something very useful from this.  i have been pulling sideways and feel that i need too, BUT.... all your crazy videos doing much more complicated tricks than i do only show forward/backward!  Back to the drawing board.  i am sure a couple weeks of relearning inputs will really pay off!

Ara... I think in 3yrs we'll be looking back and telling the next gen of newbs "forward and back... Thats it! And work on your timing!" ;D
Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Lou on May 27, 2013, 04:40 PM
Don't be disheartened, Ara.

Play around with your kites and see what works best for you and your kite.
Don't think too much, free your mind and enjoy your flying.
If you trying too hard chances are you'll leave the field early and if you try to digest too much you'll burnout.

Happy Flying. ;)
Ian.


These are incredibly powerful statements.  The days I load my brain with hours of tutorial videos and then try to go apply them on the field it leads to some improvement but also many times ALOT of frustration.  Just this afternoon I decided to take the family to the park I fly at and just relax.  I flew some SLKs with my daughter and occasionally flew the duallies with my sons.  Believe it or not I did far better having a relaxed and pleasant mindset and got closer to my Jacobs Ladders.  Amazing how much more I progressed and enjoyed doing it than previous days. 

I clearly understand your intentions to try and develop a standard for what is to some degree loose jargon.  I suggest that you just try and apply methods based on your interpretation initially and just simply ask specific questions on a particular move/trick when all else fails.  Everyone here and many other forums are always helpful and informative.  I know I'll be starting to ask a lot more questions as soon as I start to get deeper into trick combos!  :D

Here's my example of "POPping" a lateral roll as a video tutorial instructs which was supposed to then put the kite into a backflip.  Due to too much input the kite rolls up past the backflip to about 270 degrees pointing downwards and then proceeds to unroll almost immediately and the start of the JL is lost... Maybe if I had been told to PULL or even POP+1.5 rather than my POP+7 I could have continued the trick.   ;)  Seriously, practice practice practice and the input sensitivity seems to self correct.

JoAnns Fabric Quartz Action!

Pull It Dont Pop It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YgJZXTAUAQ#ws)


Title: Re: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: trigger on May 27, 2013, 06:13 PM
Ok, first attempt at loosing the monkey arms went very well tonight!  i brought the family out and my wife flew the life out of her snapshot. When i tried it she snuck over and grabbed my zephyr... Shes getting much better too.
  i was able to do lazy susans without crossing my arms or trying to fly with one arm.  axles were ok, but needed more slack.  overall i have a short term goal that should lead to some long term results!
  i think i honestly bought my future improvements at the festival last weekend.... Snapshot for the wife to get family air time ;D

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: drmndrew82 on May 28, 2013, 01:56 PM

I want to thank Ara for bringing this topic up. I think/hope it will help a lot of flyers to understand why they can't do the tricks after watching the videos and reading the posts.

I spent hours and hours and hours watching videos, reading posts, and then trying to replicate them on the field. It was not very effective at learning the tricks quickly, but I did learn a lot from my failures.

With the half axel specifically, It took me about 4-5 months. The great comments in this post pretty much cover what I learned when I finally mastered this trick. Pops and pulls and inputs in general are subjective and really depend on conditions/kite/style as stated. In fact when I do a half axel in light wind I consider it a sweeping pull, but in high winds it takes an aggressive pop.

With the slot machine... In lighter winds my first input is a smaller pop while the second input is a larger sweeping pull. In higher winds the first input in my mind is a stronger pop while the second input is a lighter sweeping pull(by comparison to the first input).

Of course that is just the way I understand it. Everyone is different. I was very frustrated for some time, but then finally realized. Hey... I'm doing this for fun. Every hour on the field will get you better whether you learn a trick or not. For all you new flyers... My advice is to have fun experimenting and learning. The tricks will come with time.


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 28, 2013, 02:44 PM
Great comments and kind words from all of you.
Thanks!
I understand I have to fly with my "heart" (or "guts"(!)) rather than my brain... but I am not made that way and tend to be very systematic and square headed.
 ___
|:-I|
 ---

This doesn't men I don't have fun on the flying field.  :)

But I understand what you are saying.
Also I think these neurotic attacks of mine expressed in the forum help me a lot to get your feedback. And I hope they can help others too...   ::)
I would not like to feel I'm being a pest or stubborn as a donkey...  :-[

So all of you that have answered these questions, rest assured that this is helping me a lot.
THANKS!  :)


P.S. Great video Lou!


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: Lou on May 28, 2013, 03:27 PM
Np Ara,  just my idiotic attempts to add humor where stress might wander.  Took me a moment to find a good pop sound to add to that video.  All in good fun!  ;D

PM sent with a question for you also. 


Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: trigger on May 28, 2013, 04:10 PM
<<<<son of an engineer...  It's how we are wired!

I am starting to fly with more emotion than thought.. and i think music helps alot!  so have these posts



Title: Re: The general terms: POP & PULL
Post by: True Rookie on June 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
  POP , PULL , NICK NACK , PADDIE WHACK give the dog a bone. I'm defenetly a newbie I started out reading this and was confused a little bit. kinda the same way you were when you started reading what I just typed. But I think I'm starting to understand it a little better on how to control the kite, thanks.