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Author Topic: Help on Vapor framing  (Read 4175 times)
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Svolazzo
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« on: June 15, 2009, 02:05 AM »

Hi, I finally found a Vapor   Cool Grin  it was made in 1996 but I think it's a Type 2 because it has four stand offs but doesn't have the stand offs holes on the trailing edge, they are instead as the early type with holes surrounded by black reinforcement washers as the early type, besides the stand offs fittings haven't clips as in the Ozone but are instead Jaco's, and then the outer stand offs fitting on the sail is keystone, like the Illusion's one, am I correct?
Ok, here is the question: unfortunately I found only one elbow fitting stop on one spar ( one upper leading edge ), the other 3 are missed.
I put one stop ( shrink tube ) copying the measurement of the one I had, then I assembled all the kite to verify the size before shrinking also the other 2 stops on the lower leading edges. So I checked the wingspan and   it was 2,27 m  ( about 89 inches) also sliding down the LS elbow fittings on the LE sail cut. 
Well, the Prism table I have says that the wingspan should be 2,13 m ( 84 inches), so what's wrong? Is the 2 type Vapor larger than the late type? Have I to slide down also the elbow fitting's stops on the upper leading edges to narrow the kite size? As I told the only one stop I found in place was just on one upper leading edge spar, so I supposed that it was correct, but nevertheless the size comes out wrong, if it has to be 84 inches.
Hoping to have been clear, thanks for any help.
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 07:52 AM »

Svolazzo,
The wingtips should pull in to the 84 inch mark once the leading edges are tensioned.  Did you tension them on your test assembly?

There's always the possibility that your Vapour has been altered.  If you could provide some pictures I could compare them to ours and maybe come up with some more ideas.

Jim
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Svolazzo
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 11:54 AM »

Jim,
of course I assembled completely the kite before measuring it, tensioning the leading edge, I even replaced the old tensioners with 100 Lb bridles lines, so no problem with this. The guy I bought the Vapor from told me it's absolutely original and unmodified. I surfed the web and found some pictures both of 1 and 3 Vapor Edition but none of the 2 type like mine. Here are the links: (3) http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2881120740103941057VIdirl   and (1) http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8032&highlight=vapor
I noticed that the sail's cut on the lower leading edge differs between the two models: both in the early model and mine the cut is higher (more toward the nose) then in the late type, if you magnify (save the second to magnify  Wink  ) the two pictures you'll see it very well.   
O course if the cut is lower also the elbow fittings are lower and the lower spreader pull more inside the leading edges narrowing the kite, correct?
But mine is higher so the lower spreaders aren't able to pull the wingtips to reach the 84 inches size. I don't think the leading edges cuts had been alterated, you should replace them completely to do this, not possible definately.
Is your Vapor 2 or 3 type? I'll shot some pictures of mine then I'll post them ASAP. And just to know, how is the size of yours lower spreaders? Mine are two full length 32,5 " Avia G Force Skinnys: are them correct?
Thanks for your help,
Paolo.
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 12:11 PM »

Paolo,
We have a version one and a two.............the one built in '95 and the two in '97, I think.......I can measure my spreaders for you if you like, later on today
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 12:40 PM »

Our lower spreaders measure 29 7/8" nose to ferrule and our upper spreader is 19 5/16" long.

Leading edges are 63 1/2 inches long, roughly, and we have replaced both lowers with the modern ones which plugged in perfectly........

(don't ever leave your vapor lying on the ground when you're flying Sad Angry)

From the wingtip to the top of the lower apa fitting stopper is 21 1/4"

Looks to me like the lower spreaders are not the right length...........probably some one never cut down the skinnys when they got them..............could have an effect on flight, for sure.

Let us know how it works out and enjoy that Vapor...one of my favorite old skoolers, for sure.

Jim
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Svolazzo
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 04:05 PM »

Jim,

Our lower spreaders measure 29 7/8" nose to ferrule and our upper spreader is 19 5/16" long.

Indeed I suspected that my lower spreader were too long, I'll try with a shorter spare spar before cutting my Skinny.....but what surprised me was the Upper Spreader.....huummm 19 5/16"   Huh  mine is 57,2 cm (with endcaps) or 22,52" too much difference!!!

Leading edges are 63 1/2 inches long, roughly, and we have replaced both lowers with the modern ones which plugged in perfectly........

(don't ever leave your vapor lying on the ground when you're flying Sad Angry)

From the wingtip to the top of the lower apa fitting stopper is 21 1/4"

These are Ok....and I agree a Vapor isn't a good place to walk on  Wink


Looks to me like the lower spreaders are not the right length...........probably some one never cut down the skinnys when they got them..............could have an effect on flight, for sure.

Let us know how it works out and enjoy that Vapor...one of my favorite old skoolers, for sure.

Jim

Again I agree, it looks like the lower spreader is to shorten, but as I told, I'll check with a spare rod before cutting my Skinnies. However the more odd thing is the Upper spreader length.... Huh I don't doubt your knowledge, but how do you explain the wide difference? Maybe a check with another spare rod could be useful.
And what about the stand offs and their length? Are yours with the Jaco fittings too?
Thanks again for your help,
Paolo
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:54 PM by Svolazzo » Logged
Kantaxel
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 10:26 PM »

I know for sure that you have the wrong upper spreader.  The version last (#3) measured 22 inches.  There may have been some more differences, (I know that there are a lot more oddities amongst the Prism line, as far as subleties that haven't really been publicised........

I would figure out what dimension best fits the reinforcement on your sail (if there is one) and cut your upper spreader to fit.   I know that version # one came with two uppers, one for indoors and one for outdoors............good luck!
Smoothest of winds and happy low wind flying to you,

Jim
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Svolazzo
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 06:08 PM »

Jim,
yes I posted also on the Prism forum, but if you agree and to stay simple, we could go ahead only here, ok?
Here are some details of the Vapor:
the first is the #

As you see is 1996 model # 58, so it would be a second type, indeed numbering restarted every new version, correct?

Here are the standoffs sail fittings:



You can see that holes aren't on the triling edge but slightly inside and the outer standoff has a keystone fitting, besides fittings are Jaco's.
The stand offs sizes are very longer then the ones you told me. Mine are: inner 27 cm (10,63"), outer 25 cm (9,84") both from sail to vinil caps.

Finally a pic of the bridle, the ferrule you see on the center T is a rod I temporary put on to check some lower spreader:


And now a big surprise: just today I received another Vapor  Grin....yes I found two  Cool  3 type for sure (4 standoffs, holes on the triling edges etc).
I checked all the spars size and they are as you told me, indeed I assembled it and all came right, so at least no issue with this.
Then I compared the two sails and what a surprise! they differ: the central white panel just close to the center mylar on the spine is larger than in the 3 type one, the other white, trasparent and red panels fit each other. These things increased my confusion: of course if two panels are larger the whole kite will be larger, so also the wingspan will be larger, or not? Besides I tested a spare upper spreader and lower spreaders cut at the lengths you told me ( the same as found on the just got 3 type Vapor) but sail shape seems odd to me, besides the upper spreader doesn't touch the mylar crossing the spine.....again more confusion here! Maybe this is a particular wider Vapor? I will post some pictures tomorrow to show you what I mean.

Paolo
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 06:53 PM »

Looks as though there were two sail changes from 1 to the second version Shocked.

That looks as though it should be version 1.5 let's say?

I'll take a look at our version one and we can sorta figure out what the upper spreader should be.............(maybe Wink)............very odd, the only thing I/m sutre about on both one and two is that the upper spreader stops are located at the same place.

Jim
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Svolazzo
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 06:47 AM »

Maybe I just came across to a 1,5 version, here are two more pics: I placed the 3 type on the 2 to compare the sails and as I told you I noticed that the type 2 is larger than the 3 (larger because the central white panel near the mylar on the spine is actually larger), here you can see for transparency what I mean:



Than I compared also the wingtips, the type 3 is shorter, so the type 2 has to be larger as wingspan or not? But now what's the right size to give it? Where to put the stoppers on the LLE? Ans what would be the right Lower Spreaders, Upper Spreader and stand offs length?



It's a real challenge, my friend!  Shocked
Also the type 3 came with something odd IMHO, it doesn't have the elbow fittings on the LEs, but 4 APAs stand off fittings  Huh  Shocked....I'm planning to replace them with 4 more correct elbow fittings, so what ever Prism made on these Vapors?

Thanks for any help,
Paolo.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 06:57 AM by Svolazzo » Logged
Kantaxel
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 04:28 PM »

So.........

I just made a detailed response with pictures to your latest and, with a new mouse, lost about an hour's work Angry

I will try again and be more careful, but I think you have the earliest version of the Vapor.

Jim 
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 05:15 PM »

Paolo,
I was remiss about when our Vapor #74 was actually made.  It was in May of '96




It features a cross-axis bridle and has only one set of stand-offs. (Without the keystand pair)






I thought I knew Vapors, but there is obviously more about the different configs than meets the eye.  For instance the first version has a deeper sail, as the longer stand-offs portray and they didn't have APA fittings, vinyl tubing type attachments instead.  I took our host Steve's advice and replaced mine on #074 with apa fittings like your second version uses, which totally matches ours (#191).  You don't have the last version which sports another sail change and lower upper spreader attach points, with a spreader measuring 22".

Like your second one our no. 2 upper spreader does not really cross the triangle reinforcement on the sail at the spine.  I don't know how to fix this as it would put the apa fittings in to the sail cut-out on the leading edge.


A pic of #191.....you may have seen it somewhere else:



Of course, I don't know for sure anything about how Mark went about redesigning the various sails and the REAL chronology, but it seems to me that yours is probably the earliest version, as they were both made in the same year with the numbers being so close.

I'll also go out on a stupid limb and surmise that yours probably had a cross-axis bridle because, in your picture, it looks awful long, to me. I'm also going to stay on that limb and say that the kite has been modified somewhat because of the lower spreader config it came with.........I think I feel the limb starting to crack Wink

Anyway, that's about all the help I can give unless you have any questions about measurements, etc.

Good luck!

Jim

PS:

I just took another close look at the keystone stand-off...........................the way it's stitched almost looks like it's an add-on.
What do you think?  You've got an up close and in it's face viewpoint Wink

   


« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 06:47 PM by Kantaxel » Logged

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vol_de_nuit
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 07:18 PM »

Hi Pablo,

Follow-up to the Prism forum. It looks like you have a "early" Type 1 Vapor from your photos. The standoff fittings do not look like at all like my Vapor.

My Vapor is inscribed with "Aug 02" or "802".

All the standoff fitting holes are on the trailing edge (each side has 1 hole for 1 outer standoff and 7 holes for 1 inner standoff).

Interesting? Getting confused??


cheers!
Tee

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cheers!
Tee
Svolazzo
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 05:14 PM »

Paolo,
I was remiss about when our Vapor #74 was actually made.  It was in May of '96

It features a cross-axis bridle and has only one set of stand-offs. (Without the keystand pair)

I thought I knew Vapors, but there is obviously more about the different configs than meets the eye.  For instance the first version has a deeper sail, as the longer stand-offs portray and they didn't have APA fittings, vinyl tubing type attachments instead.  I took our host Steve's advice and replaced mine on #074 with apa fittings like your second version uses, which totally matches ours (#191).  You don't have the last version which sports another sail change and lower upper spreader attach points, with a spreader measuring 22".


Ok, more likely I have a 1 type but with 4 standoffs

Like your second one our no. 2 upper spreader does not really cross the triangle reinforcement on the sail at the spine.  I don't know how to fix this as it would put the apa fittings in to the sail cut-out on the leading edge.


A pic of #191.....you may have seen it somewhere else:

Of course, I don't know for sure anything about how Mark went about redesigning the various sails and the REAL chronology, but it seems to me that yours is probably the earliest version, as they were both made in the same year with the numbers being so close.

I'll also go out on a stupid limb and surmise that yours probably had a cross-axis bridle because, in your picture, it looks awful long, to me. I'm also going to stay on that limb and say that the kite has been modified somewhat because of the lower spreader config it came with.........I think I feel the limb starting to crack Wink

Anyway, that's about all the help I can give unless you have any questions about measurements, etc.

Good luck!

Jim

PS:

I just took another close look at the keystone stand-off...........................the way it's stitched almost looks like it's an add-on.
What do you think?  You've got an up close and in it's face viewpoint Wink

Well Jim, more likely I have a 1 type, with 4 standoffs.....an add-on, sincerely when I saw them for a moment I surmised so, but it's very hard to say, and then added by who, by Prism or the previous owner? And what about the larger central white panel of the sail, look at the pic with my second Vapor put on the first and it's clear that the panel is larger, I measured it, it's 8 cm larger between the point where the 3 black ribbons meet. Such a larger panel together with the longer wings and sail tips, leads to a wider wingspan compared with the standard size, do you agree?
Fixing the square sail reinforcement where US cross the spine is easy, I simply replace the wrong one with a new one square of self adhesive dacron sticked in the right place. If glue leave spots, I clean them with white spirit (if my english is correct, it's a paint thinner called aquaragia in italian....but not acetone!) it doesn't affect mylar at all.
Ah, I also replaced on the other Vapor, the standoffs fittings on the LEs with 4 APAs elbow fittings which fit way better the spreader and look also better.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:50 PM by Svolazzo » Logged
Svolazzo
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 05:27 PM »

Hi Pablo,

Follow-up to the Prism forum. It looks like you have a "early" Type 1 Vapor from your photos. The standoff fittings do not look like at all like my Vapor.

My Vapor is inscribed with "Aug 02" or "802".

All the standoff fitting holes are on the trailing edge (each side has 1 hole for 1 outer standoff and 7 holes for 1 inner standoff).

Interesting? Getting confused??

cheers!
Tee 

Yes I actually think that I have a 1 type but with some modifications made maybe by Prism or by someone.
And what do you think about the size, as I already posted it's very larger than a Vapor's standard size: look at pics in my previous posts.
The second Vapor I own, has, as yours, the standoffs holes on the trailing edges with 7 and 1 hole (inner SO, outer SO) and it's #95 made 5/14 '97.
It's maybe a 2 type, or do you think it's a 3 type? However all came together well when I assembled it, at least this Vapor is ok!   

Ciao,
Paolo.
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