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Author Topic: New generation of Bridles?  (Read 2091 times)
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Ara Ararauna
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« on: November 10, 2013, 12:29 PM »

Hi,

I've been told that new generation of bridles in new kites will start to be placed lower in the frame to have more control in tricks.

Apparently the idea is to place the inhauls about 3cm below the center T, the upper legs 2 or 2.5cm below the connector of the upper spreader.

Some kites are already doing this (e.g. some French kites) and supposedly this will be the new trend...

Has anyone heard anything about this?
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Hadge
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 12:52 PM »

I know a few kites have had the inhaul lines attached below the centre T - My Spiderkites Zodarion* originally had the inhaul 10cm below the T and I believe some Eolo Over's had a similar thing.  Not sure about uphauls that far below the upper spreader.  I suppose if the balance of the kite is designed to work with this sort of bridle it would work - not sure what the advantages would be though. It would be interesting to try it out.

(* it originally had an Andy Wardley designed bridle with many legs, links and activators which looked like a cat's cradle - I found it very twitchy and swapped it for a turbo bridle that works much better for me.)
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 03:40 PM »

The early Prism Eclipse kites had the inhauls at the bottom of the keel.
Nice to see the "new French bridles" catching on.  Smiley

Far right middle of photo:
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thief
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 04:42 PM »

over they years many builders tweaked the bridles into different positions...all depends on what the kite needs, and where it is required and what the bridle is hopefully going to allow the kite to do....
many kites have had their bridle legs attach lower on the spine like JCs Eclipse picture....but you can see that the normal spot now a days is where the lower spreaders connect or relatively close to that spot.

There was a kite by Dean Jordan called the Speck that had an extra leg that went to the wingtip....never understood that one...

cats cradle?
try this on for size....


a hand tied bridle for my Geenie, by the designer Curtiss Mitchell...attaches to the frame in 7 spots....this kite is a pancake and 540 master!!!!
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 11:10 PM »

This is really nothing "new".  The Zephyr still puts the in hauls far below the T and there are many kites going all the way back that have done bridles below the T, below the LS fittings on the LE and even in hauls on the US (6 point or H bridle).  Even Mathias placing the in hauls on the LS was done on several kites in the early 80's.  IMO it's not a necessity and if not done right it can place the stresses in a bad spot causing rod failure.  The fittings are the strongest place on a kite frame to focus the forces from the bridle and also the stiffest. Often if you find a better spot to put a bridle leg attachment point that gives better results you can move the spreaders half that distance and get the same results while leaving the bridle on the fitting.  Its all about balancing the fulcrum point that leg gives when its active.  Sail shape and frame specs have a greater affect though.

Rob, Wasn't it Mitchell that came up with the 6 point "H" bridle that had an in haul to the center of the US?
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Krijn
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 11:42 PM »

check the p3 out: http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=10320.0

the bridle is 4.5 cm below the centre-t and also 5 below the lowerspreader
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 04:51 AM »

Rob, Wasn't it Mitchell that came up with the 6 point "H" bridle that had an in haul to the center of the US?
It would not surprise me if Curtiss  did something like that... He was extremely innovative, check out his backbow kite (just never mention it to zippy).....
The bridles I have seen from him are all spectra and very light but well done....
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 05:32 AM »

Ara : search for pictures of the Mullins kites bridles too.....you will enjoy them....

Have you read Andy's page yet? http://wardley.org/kites/bridle/index.html

And some info from rec.kites that Andy had archived specific to bridle design
http://wardley.org/kites/reckites/index.html#Bridle_Design
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 03:51 AM »

Sorry for the silence.

Thanks all for your replies.

It is not that I want to construct my bridle or change the ones I have.

It was just out of curiosity since someone told me that lowering the bridle anchor points, especially upper outhaul and inhaul, favoured a better control of tricks.

However, after your replies it seems to me that it does depend completely on where the centre of gravity of the kite is placed in the sail/frame design.

Hence, what sounded like a general enhancement for any kite, looks more like something that has to be considered from the very basic design of the kite and that would not work for any kite.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks!
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 07:42 AM »

NO!! It is a BLACK ART and they are always designed and tied in places mere mortals fear to tread (at least me)
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 09:34 AM »

There are many variables - I'm not sure how designers manage to get sit done without much trial and error. 

Sail shape, spars, bridle, weight distribution, standoffs, etc.  Change any one thing and then try a test string of 21 tricks and see if it's any better?  Is that how they do it?

I've flown kites where adjusting the bridle 1/2 inch nose forward ruins the kite and others where you can move it 2 inches with no ill effect. 

I'm sure that there are general principles, but beyond the basics of getting it to fly, I'm not sure how useful they are. 

It would be great if someone who has been through designing a capable trick kite offered a more informed opinion.

Tom
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Hadge
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2013, 09:51 AM »

This is one of the best texts I've found to explain the basic principles of bridling.

http://www.iannewham.com/kitedesign/bridling.html

Tying a basic 3 point or turbo bridle to repair or replace the standard bridle isn't that hard, you don't even need to know lots of fancy knots. A ruler and a simple overhand knot and a little planning are all you need. Bridling from scratch is more difficult but still reasonably straightforward to get you into the flying ballpark - after that is just lots of trial and error adjustments until you get it  how you like it.  Just remember to make notes of where you started!!
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 10:07 AM »

NO!! It is a BLACK ART and they are always designed and tied in places mere mortals fear to tread (at least me)

LOL  Cheesy
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 10:10 AM »

This is one of the best texts I've found to explain the basic principles of bridling.

http://www.iannewham.com/kitedesign/bridling.html

Tying a basic 3 point or turbo bridle to repair or replace the standard bridle isn't that hard, you don't even need to know lots of fancy knots. A ruler and a simple overhand knot and a little planning are all you need. Bridling from scratch is more difficult but still reasonably straightforward to get you into the flying ballpark - after that is just lots of trial and error adjustments until you get it  how you like it.  Just remember to make notes of where you started!!


Whew! I'm not getting into that mess.
I am already too frustrated with my Le Quartz which won't fly "properly" after having tried four different bridle configurations that have been recommended !!!!

So no way I'm messing with designing a new one myself. At least until I retire from work... that is in about 100years...  Embarrassed

Thanks!

 Smiley

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Ca Ike
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2013, 10:37 AM »

Bridling is a a lot of trial and error.  Once you get the kite to fly well then you have to start adjusting for tricks.  There is a point where you actually end up where you started only with the bridle being longer or shorter (tow point being in the same spot over the wing but closer to or farther from it).  I spent the better part of a year just tweaking the bridle when I was helping Jon retune the solus and I can tell you that no matter what you do to the bridle ANY flaw in the kite design itself will have more of an affect even if its just something as small as cutting a spar 1/8 inch too short.

Ara PM/e-mail me with whats going on with your quartz and I'll see what I can think of. The bridle in the plans always worked best on mine.
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