GWTW Forum
September 28, 2016, 01:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Transitioning tricks from Solus to Widow Maker  (Read 36558 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
vertigo2u
Trade Count: (+8)
****
Online Online

Posts: 990


Location:

« on: August 30, 2016, 07:32 PM »

Winds were down so I took out the Widow Maker Ul... decided to transition tricks I have been doing on the Solus to Widow Maker... I actually did this a couple days ago with my Widow Maker Capt. America.  Same results as this.  I worked on trying "Back Spins "... I am going to study the video Rob...  probably download so I can watch it at the field...  I go one twice and a lot of one timers... Every time I thought I was doing it wrong it seem liked the right move.. HELP !!!  :'(  :'(  :'(
I kept in crashes maybe someone can analyze them also..  Lips sealed  Undecided

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZGnqZGeVL0
Logged

Kite Bag: Widow Maker std. Ul, Solus std.,Ocius ul, Ocius sul,Pro Dancer,Inak,TNT,(new) Reloaded.
damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Online Online

Posts: 81

Location: UK

« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 01:50 AM »

My heart goes out to you Joe.  - If I made videos of myself, this is what my backspin attempts would usually look like.
Ironically the kite I have had the best success with backspins is the Widow Maker Std.

Anyway besides sometimes with the WM std (and Ocius on occasion) my backspins are always lateral roll escapes.  My current best guess about where I am going wrong is that I give slack too quickly in the pulling line.  If only I did a fiercer pull at the end, the line across the wing being pulled would stop the wing from rising - and the kite would backspin and not go into a lateral roll.
In your video you appear to be flying in low wind and you are being gentle with the inputs, so maybe the leading edge of the pulled wing is not being forced down by line tension.


....But for me so far it is a case of thinking it and saying it and not successfully doing. 
So I look forward to reading and trying what others have to say.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 03:07 AM by damp_weather » Logged
DD
Trade Count: (+19)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1138


Location: Ohio USA

« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 10:51 AM »

You asked so here is my 2 cents..
I very much like the music but you may find it helps to hear the 'strength/noise' of the "pops", "pulls", or "sail loading".
 Or another way to say it; did ya pull it like a quick drawer pull or a snap like a bullwhip? And when you do it based on what position the kite is in.
Having said all that,  i think you need to try a harder 'snap'; an on and immediate  off. I also think it helps, given what little 'momentum' you have in a fade,  to have the momentum  going away from your intial pull.
Certain kites just are easier then others and crappy wind doesn't help.
Ymmv
Logged

Sine Metu!
vertigo2u
Trade Count: (+8)
****
Online Online

Posts: 990


Location:

« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 09:30 PM »

The sounds were so loud or it was me Cussing... had to mute it.  But I watched the mama video more and I was way off what I was doing... My arms hurt at the end of the day from so many fades.  I appreciate all feed back.  The mama video helps but I need more verbal instructions... Devin were are you know when I need you... Cry Cry Cry
Logged

Kite Bag: Widow Maker std. Ul, Solus std.,Ocius ul, Ocius sul,Pro Dancer,Inak,TNT,(new) Reloaded.
RobB
Trade Count: (+10)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1588


Location: Long Island

WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 09:58 PM »

Hey Joe...
Universal truth in trick flying... more slack. The inputs were OK for the backspin, but walking towards the kite as you're giving the inputs is key to this trick. I have to watch the video again, but that was the impression I got from the first watch. The Solus is a backspin monster, once you get the trick, it will probably be your most frequent trick. At least with that kite... the WM is more difficult to backspin, BTW.
Logged

jlmcevoy
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 44


Location: mid Michigan

« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2016, 04:32 AM »

Hi Joe,

As mentioned by RobB and DD, more slack and more of a snap will likely get you back spinning better. Don't be afraid to spank the kite to make it respond. Also, if you give the snap immediately after getting into a fade from a half axel while the nose is pointed down slightly, it is usually easier to get the spin started.

Keep practicing as you are and you will be rewarded.

Jim
Logged
asburyparkjohn
Trade Count: (+19)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 675


Location: Asbury Park, New Jersey - USA

« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 11:49 AM »

Joe -
I have to admit of all the pilots that attend this forum you perseverance is always good to see ... trick flying is endless. These past two summers I was practicing the cascade as it was a trick I always blew off and never practiced. Next year I will be concentrating on the TAZ and Slot more - I guess with a Lam kite we tend to do more of every turtle based trick IMO - so I was doing triple wrap yo-yo multi-lazies unwraps 60' to the ground at the top of central window at a time where I could not even execute a half ass Cascade. Really. Thinking back on the backspin I recall the positioning of the kite was critical IMO. I think? for a clockwise spin when viewing the kite head-on maybe lower the left wing and then do the lawnmower type pull (LMTP) - easy then SLIGHTLY quicker starting off as you approach the hip position. Too much energy into the LTMP and it will fall out of its rotation. So monitor moving forward. The other initial problem with the the backspin is the slight pull with the the opposite hand to stop the kite. So try for CW BS:

1. Fade
2. Lower the left wing by slightly raising your right hand. Once it dips slightly immediately but gently starting off with (3).
3. Lawnmower pull starting off gently with the right hand. Try the LMTP movement not perfectly backwards but off to the side say at 45* (i.e., not perpendicular to your body).
4. When CW BS is 90% around slight pull with left hand for stoppage. Takes a lot of practice to get the feel and timing so its no longer a thought process but just robotic as with all trick style executions.

Perform 500 times  Wink till break-through. Best practiced when wind is semi-pure off that lake you fly next too - the BS LOVES pure wind and low wind during its initial learning process.

APJ
Logged

Kite inventory of Dual Line Kites:Benson - Inner Space; L'Atelier xt.z.; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Light; GPS -SUL, Light, Vent Light/4 Panel Vent-design, Full Vent 5PT design ; Mind Trick SUL Custom 2PT Design, Triple S Mind Trick construction (SSSUL) - NEAR ZERO WIND INDOOR TYPE.
vertigo2u
Trade Count: (+8)
****
Online Online

Posts: 990


Location:

« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2016, 01:56 PM »

John,  I finally got a chance to work on the back spin yesterday.  Please  :'(  take a look   Huh and point out everything you can note... I appreciate it...   Kiss Today I tried but the wind was too light.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ1dJ_iVJ24

p.s.  I am going to double post this video on the other page also...
Logged

Kite Bag: Widow Maker std. Ul, Solus std.,Ocius ul, Ocius sul,Pro Dancer,Inak,TNT,(new) Reloaded.
Gamelord
Trade Count: (+3)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2016, 06:23 PM »

My two cents....which is probably not worth two cents....

When you pull, I think you are pulling too aggressively to start the backspin.  When I do mine it is more of a progressive pull, starting slow to begin the rotation and then smoothly increase the strength of the "draw" to get the kite to spin.  Once the kite is half way, stop and throw slack in both hands so the kite finishes the pull.  Your first one is nearly correct as you do get the spin, but because it is more of a yank than a smooth progressive pull, the kite ends up spinning on it's nose more than normal.  For your second pull, it is the same, a firm but progressively stronger draw as the kite comes around and then slack while it finishes the rotation on the other side.  What I see is wrong is that your second pull on the second rotation is late and way to much of a yank.  The rotation should be a smooth "speed up" rotation as the kite goes around. The pulling at each rotation should be a smooth rythimic progressive pattern.  Yours appears to be more of a yank and wait, yank and wait. Coax the kite around, not spank it around.

Hope that helps. 
Logged

asburyparkjohn
Trade Count: (+19)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 675


Location: Asbury Park, New Jersey - USA

« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 04:04 PM »

Joe -

Finally saw your video in Slo-Mo. I think you have the technique but remember I see your RIGHT HAND trying to do some of the steering. Just LMTP 45*out. Sometimes what happens if the wind is not pure and your near the ground the rotation slows down and the kite crashes 1/2 way around as it appears to be the case in this video. It's not you its the low or inpure wind IMO working against you and trying this TRICK too close to the ground.

Keep your inputs with your right hand uniform. More slack with the LEFT and take 1-2 steps INWARD to help the backspin. Its like the cascade continually moving forward will make its execution easier.

My suggestion is also to learn one rotation AT A TIME. Learn to use your left hand to stop the rotation when the kite is 3/4 around. Just a light pull - again 45* outward. See what happens.

Again - Try these 10-12 feet high rather than head high to give you more LEEWAY for error off the ground due to occasional inconsistent winds which appears to be the case here.

You got it ... just do these tweaks. After you can stop it or can do six in a row and hold the fade afterwards try multiple rotations and then move to the backspin cascade (BC). Best to do single CCW-BS's first - of course - before trying the BC.

Also good practice Joe is like when you first learned the Fade - see if you can hold it for a minute. Same with a BS-CW rotation. Try to hold the fade for 30 seconds if you current flying spot or in-land conditions allow for this time frame. This practicing technique IMO will also jump start you nicely when going into the BC.

APJ
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:11 PM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

Kite inventory of Dual Line Kites:Benson - Inner Space; L'Atelier xt.z.; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Light; GPS -SUL, Light, Vent Light/4 Panel Vent-design, Full Vent 5PT design ; Mind Trick SUL Custom 2PT Design, Triple S Mind Trick construction (SSSUL) - NEAR ZERO WIND INDOOR TYPE.
adx1592
Trade Count: (+31)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1218

Location: Pinckney, MI/Cincinnati, OH

« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2016, 06:28 AM »

Joe I watched the video and within two rotations I stopped the video. Same issues you had with every one trick you had a block against: you get too excited too quickly, haha.

When the kite comes around from its first rotation, you give the second tug on the line BEFORE the wing you pulled the first time, becomes parallel to the ground, nOT after.

Right now your inputs are like this ----- pull- rotate around- kite becomes parallel- pull for next rotation- *kite falls out*
they should be-- pull- rotation- pull again before the kite becomes parallel to ground- kite becomes parallel to ground- rotation cont'd.

For the kiters you didn't know- joe had a big block until we started the flapjack. To make this work, I was standing with my feet spread out as far as i could, had joe pull me around as if my arms were two lines, etc. When I leaned forward to him, i'd fall on my face (simulating the kite launching forward, and flipping back). when he pulled me when i was leaning away from him, my leg would likely snap and I'd get stuck in the ground (simulating the kite not going anywhere if you pull the kite onto its back, when nose isn't falling forwards you). An unclose physical example seemed to work.

So I urge you to find a video of a gymnast in slow motion doing backflips on a trampoline. Watch what they do to their bodies to prep for the next rotation/flip. This isn't really much different than what we do with a kite. There are and always will be, parallels everywhere.
Logged

-Devin Cobleigh-Morrison
vertigo2u
Trade Count: (+8)
****
Online Online

Posts: 990


Location:

« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 02:21 PM »

Yea, your right abut the nervous thing.  I realize when I go to the Fade I get a mental block.  I worry that it's going to crash downward.  The thing that sticks out the most is I don't know what to look at after the first spin.  The point of issue that sticks out the most is when I was doing the Cascade(flip flop).  When I started to watch the kite and saw the point when to toss it again.  I am not watching the kite.  The second spin is me going though some sort of motion. Also good advise was for me to do one at a time till I am use to it...  and doing it properly.
Logged

Kite Bag: Widow Maker std. Ul, Solus std.,Ocius ul, Ocius sul,Pro Dancer,Inak,TNT,(new) Reloaded.
asburyparkjohn
Trade Count: (+19)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 675


Location: Asbury Park, New Jersey - USA

« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 05:47 PM »

Joe -

One last tip for this thread and maybe relevant for all your future endeavors. Before I got the Beach place in Asbury Park between 30-45 I was more into golf than stunt kites. I was even a member of a semi-private club. In NJ that is a big proposition at around $10K/year. Anyway out on the course all members in the low handicap groups were always playing with the most current and best equipment - some would even sell their clubs annually or upgrade something minimally. Using graphite shafts if you were older, using PING golf clubs obviously over a Sport Authority brand, etc. - same with stunt kites. Who is to say which is best (Lam, R-Sky, PAW, Krijn, L'Atelier, etc.). But you figure if you spend $500 on a stunt kite it PROBABLY will be ALOT easier to trick than a $250 kite. As an example the kite Frazer currently has for sale a lot of the European flyers have been giving it 5 Stars. A kite like this WILL make your tricks COME EASIER. I have flown $250 after flying a Lam kite - I can say in this example tricks were MUCH harder to output.

Like in Golf swinging a club produced in 2016 will be such an advantage to your competition if he is using something of the same model from 2009- Same with a new or used golf ball (i.e., more distance). I go CADILLAC so my tricking is easier, more efficient, less work and hence more enjoyable.

You still need to practice seriously - but give yourself the best tool possible. Is it time to break away from the MID-stream models IMO. Is it not difficult enough flying INLAND. I will sell you a Lam kite at a reasonable price if you are interested. If you want something else - then OK. Think about it Joe.

Another analogy Joe is a fishing boat. Who is the best fisherman? Its not the guy with the biggest fish its the guy that comes off the Party Boat withe most fish due to having the most experience and using the best equipment - more often than not. Everyone uses the same bait.

What's in your tool box (i.e., kite bag) Joe?

Step 1 (wrong equipment but determination)

https://vimeo.com/98400070

Step 2 (low end equipment but determination)

https://vimeo.com/14655665

Step 3 (good equipment with high skills - high determination no longer required? - just put in the air time)

https://vimeo.com/60932132

Joe see what happens with a BMW.

I remember someone once told me Joe and I only hesitated for six months when I was flying the Sea Devil - John don't ever fly a Fearless you will never go back.

APJ

Logged

Kite inventory of Dual Line Kites:Benson - Inner Space; L'Atelier xt.z.; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Light; GPS -SUL, Light, Vent Light/4 Panel Vent-design, Full Vent 5PT design ; Mind Trick SUL Custom 2PT Design, Triple S Mind Trick construction (SSSUL) - NEAR ZERO WIND INDOOR TYPE.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Support the GWTW Forum

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

FMKS
Fly Market

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at top)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!