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Author Topic: Sixth Sense 'SUL' Advise & Opinions Wanted  (Read 1423 times)
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photogbill
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« on: January 25, 2014, 04:36 PM »

After flying my Sixth Sense UL in some very light winds recently at the beach, I decided that I would like to try building an 'SUL' Sixth Sense.

I was thinking about using 1.5 oz. rip-stop instead of 4 oz. Dacron for the leading edge; a lighter weight nose material; reduced weight/size of all reinforcements; & 6-8 gram tail weight instead of the 15 grams I have on the UL. 

My UL is framed in Skyshark P100s (LEs & Spine) with 3PT LS rods and flew in a very light wind ...better than some ULs, probably due to the size of the sail. I was thinking about using either P90s or a cut to length 40" 2PT rod (down at small end to approx. 36"); 2PT ULE rods cut at the small end down to approx. 28" & full length P90 LLE rods; 2PT LS rods; smaller diameter protruded US rod  (not sure which one); & smaller TAPA connectors if possible.

Hoping to reduce weight by 7-9 grams tail weight, approx. 2 grams spine, 7 grams on LEs, 8 grams LS rods, 1 gram US rod, maybe 2 grams total on sail material ...for an approx. total of 29 grams or 1 ounce.

  • First, am I wasting my time for little gain in your opinion?
  • Should I keep same materials for the sail build as my UL and ONLY change frame & connectors?
  • Should I use some other frame combination?

If I keep the same sail build (same materials) and use some lighter weight framing combination .....and do not see a significant low wind advantage or lose it's preferred flight characteristics, I can always reframe the new kite with my UL framing & reframe my current SS in a standard wind frame for more mass and perhaps better trick performance!

At any rate ....ALL suggestions and opinions will be appreciated!
One of these will be my new sail color combo ('right click' and open in new window for larger view):


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tpatter
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 05:14 PM »

I think it is well worth the experiment.  My std goes very low, but also can take some wind. That large sail helps a lot.   I would be tempted to go 2 pt all the way around.  I think you are likely to lose the one pop yoyo without adding alot of weight, but I think everything else will stay. 

Good luck.
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6 kite tom
stapp59
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2014, 05:09 AM »

All experiments are worthwhile as you learn something new and just may end up with something useful.  Cheesy

The construction changes you describe should cut off an ounce maybe a little more.  You need at least an ounce to make a noticeable step change.

Consider using hollow .2400 ferrules, .157 upper spreader, and 2mm standoff carbon to complement your 2PT frame.

Cutting down the longer 2PTs will give you a little stiffer frame though you are going to lose stiffness and mass for tricks over the UL.  Its all about the best compromise of course.

the lighter LE tunnel will save the most sail weight.  Keep the size of the sail reinforcements just use lighter materials.

You may be able to tweak the bridle (down and in), standoff lengths (shorter length and flatter TE), US (longer) to get a little more low wind ability.  All designs are different in what works best.

I just framed up my SS UL this week with an all 3PT frame. The sail is identical to the Std with Dacron LEs.  The framing alone took nearly 2 oz off the all Nitro Std.  The SS is a big kite and has lots of carbon. Have not flown it yet.

I've tried lighter frames in several of my kites with varying success. All gain some low wind ability.  All lose some tricking mass. The question is was it worth it?

My favorite project so far has been the Exile.  It's a little smaller than the SS and the UL is already pretty efficient in low winds.  I have models from the 12 oz vent that flies in 20+ mph to a 6 oz. SUL with a ZA frame and Icarex LE tunnel sail that will fly in a whisper.  Very different kites to fly.

I don't know if Davide has tried an SUL version of the SS.  May want to ask.  Good luck with the project...


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Steve in Indiana
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Krijn
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 12:00 PM »

i'll go for spinnaker in stead of dacron for the leading edges

light reinforcements and light bridle (maybe 5-10% shorter)

less weight



i think 2pt's for lower spreaders is too weak, it is a big kite

maybe 2pt's all around and 3pt spreaders?



the ul (3pt everywhere) is already a very light kite for its size (also flies that way)
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mr wojtas
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 12:03 PM »

Please try it, you won't regret it!!!

I've build a ss with spinaker nylon leading edge's, a smaller nose from bysonol, a p200 spine, 2pt upper leading edge, p100 lower leading edge, 3pt lower spreaders, 4mm upper spreader, 2mm stand off's, hollow ferrules, tiny apa's and every reinforcement is made smaller. For tailweight i use 8 grams of brass. I've made the bridle 5% smaller.


My ss ul (all p100 and 3pt lowerspreader) flies in low wind's but mu sul flies in no-wind. It's a real addition to my set of Sixt sense's

With kind regards
Chris Wojtas
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stapp59
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 07:40 PM »

190 gr is 6.7 oz. which is quite light for the full sized Six Sense.  Nice job with that.

For comparison, my Nitro standard weighs 11.5 oz ready to fly.  The UL is a 'heavy' UL with a Std sail (Dacron LE), 3PT frame with solid ferrules, 3mm standoffs, TAPAs upper and standard APAs lower, 4MM upper spreader, 20 grams tail weight and weights in at 9.5 oz ready to fly.

Your SUL would be a nice step lighter.  How would you compare its flying to the UL or Std?

Thanks!

Please try it, you won't regret it!!!

I've build a ss with spinaker nylon leading edge's, a smaller nose from bysonol, a p200 spine, 2pt upper leading edge, p100 lower leading edge, 3pt lower spreaders, 4mm upper spreader, 2mm stand off's, hollow ferrules, tiny apa's and every reinforcement is made smaller. For tailweight i use 8 grams of brass. I've made the bridle 5% smaller.

My ss ul (all p100 and 3pt lowerspreader) flies in low wind's but mu sul flies in no-wind. It's a real addition to my set of Six sense's

With kind regards
Chris Wojtas
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Steve in Indiana
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mr wojtas
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 03:54 AM »

190 gr is 6.7 oz. which is quite light for the full sized Six Sense.  Nice job with that.

For comparison, my Nitro standard weighs 11.5 oz ready to fly.  The UL is a 'heavy' UL with a Std sail (Dacron LE), 3PT frame with solid ferrules, 3mm standoffs, TAPAs upper and standard APAs lower, 4MM upper spreader, 20 grams tail weight and weights in at 9.5 oz ready to fly.

Your SUL would be a nice step lighter.  How would you compare its flying to the UL or Std?

Thanks!

Please try it, you won't regret it!!!

I've build a ss with spinaker nylon leading edge's, a smaller nose from bysonol, a p200 spine, 2pt upper leading edge, p100 lower leading edge, 3pt lower spreaders, 4mm upper spreader, 2mm stand off's, hollow ferrules, tiny apa's and every reinforcement is made smaller. For tailweight i use 8 grams of brass. I've made the bridle 5% smaller.

My ss ul (all p100 and 3pt lowerspreader) flies in low wind's but mu sul flies in no-wind. It's a real addition to my set of Six sense's

With kind regards
Chris Wojtas
Well it needs time to do the tricks, doing a axel-to-fade it needs a lighter pull to fade, half axels are no problem, as are tazmachine's, slotmachines are possible.

all in all it can do everything a ul or std can do! but keep in mind that it needs lighter inputs and more time to do its tricks. It also needs long line, a minimun of 30 meters, 25 meters is possible but not as nice

And i have made my kite a bit lighter (4 grams) by downsizing some connectors Grin
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stapp59
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2014, 05:00 AM »

Sounds nice!  May just have to add that to the build list.  Thanks for the reply.

190 gr is 6.7 oz. which is quite light for the full sized Six Sense.  Nice job with that.

For comparison, my Nitro standard weighs 11.5 oz ready to fly.  The UL is a 'heavy' UL with a Std sail (Dacron LE), 3PT frame with solid ferrules, 3mm standoffs, TAPAs upper and standard APAs lower, 4MM upper spreader, 20 grams tail weight and weights in at 9.5 oz ready to fly.

Your SUL would be a nice step lighter.  How would you compare its flying to the UL or Std?

Well it needs time to do the tricks, doing a axel-to-fade it needs a lighter pull to fade, half axels are no problem, as are tazmachine's, slotmachines are possible.

all in all it can do everything a ul or std can do! but keep in mind that it needs lighter inputs and more time to do its tricks. It also needs long line, a minimun of 30 meters, 25 meters is possible but not as nice

And i have made my kite a bit lighter (4 grams) by downsizing some connectors Grin
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Steve in Indiana
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stapp59
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2014, 06:32 PM »

Am curious about the benefits of shortening the bridle legs on the SULs?  Should make pitching easier I would think, backflips, flic/flacs, etc.  Will have to try that and find out  Smiley

I've build a ss with spinaker nylon leading edge's, a smaller nose from bysonol, a p200 spine, 2pt upper leading edge, p100 lower leading edge, 3pt lower spreaders, 4mm upper spreader, 2mm stand off's, hollow ferrules, tiny apa's and every reinforcement is made smaller. For tailweight i use 8 grams of brass.

I've made the bridle 5% smaller.

Chris Wojtas
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Steve in Indiana
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 04:10 AM »

Shorter bridle in general results in a faster reaction of the kite, and also more stress on the frame.
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stapp59
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 04:23 AM »

Got it, thanks!

Shorter bridle in general results in a faster reaction of the kite, and also more stress on the frame.
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Steve in Indiana
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photogbill
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2014, 08:28 AM »

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions & input! I would have replied sooner but have been busy at work and haven't been back to the thread since shortly after the first reply.
I hadn't thought of using protruded 2400 rods for ferrules. Good idea as well as several others.

Does anyone have a favorite one of the color combos I posted? I think any one would work well and look nice. I'll have to 'split' the outer trailing edge panel to add the colored wingtips but that shouldn't be difficult at all & help make the 'visuals' in flight & still keep the 'ghost-like' concept, IMO.
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DMF
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2014, 12:23 PM »

My vote would be for 2 but I also think #1 with a light blue wing tip would look awesome.  I'm interested to see how the SUL turns out
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Krijn
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2014, 01:07 PM »

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mr wojtas
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 07:09 AM »

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