GWTW Forum
September 30, 2014, 11:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Like it ...or NOT!  (Read 1266 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
photogbill
Trade Count: (+2)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 356

Location:

« on: February 18, 2014, 07:54 AM »

In responding to another thread on the forum, I had an interesting question come to mind that I thought might be a good subject for discussion!

That is ...How likely/willing would you be to post something very negative about a particular kite you have flown when someone asks specifically about that same kite on the forum? Would you ONLY be willing to say the "I didn't connect with it!" ...even if you thought it was the worst flying kite in the entire universe? Would you simple suggest another kite that you think would be a better choice? I'm not sure how I would respond myself but I was curious as to how everyone else feels about the subject ...and your thoughts on the matter.

On a side note ...would you go as far as to 'privately' email the person inquiring ...sharing your negativity?
Logged
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+4)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 446


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 08:58 AM »

It appears most of the regular contributors realize that each kite and flier is different. Everyone has different likes and sometimes kites need adjustment as well. I don't think that a brutal review by someone takes these differences into account unless you don't know how a kite flies. If someone blasted a Hawaiian for not being able to do Taz's or JL's then they don't understand what that kite is designed for.
Logged
Allen Carter
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+19)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1820

Location: Half Moon Bay, CA

« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 09:43 AM »

Back in the days when people were just figuring out how to make sport kites do this or that, say through the '90s and tapering off up until ten years ago or so, you would sometimes come across a kite that was just poorly designed, or designed so much in one direction it was easy to be critical of it's failings. There were sometimes "bad kites" often improved in a v2.0 release. (sometimes a great kite was felled by a v2.0 update).

If we're talking about enthusiast level kites, not consumer grade stuff, it's just pretty damn unlikely that someone will release a "bad" kite these days. In fact, most kites are so similar as to be boring. Very few kites are even different enough to be the least bit controversial. Sport kite design has plateaued. People know how to design good kites. The construction has also become standardized. It's to the point where anyone with a sewing machine can make a decent kite. 

I've flown kites over the last few years that were really bad in one way or another. In each case it wasn't the design or manufacturing it was the way the owner had tweaked the kite, either intentionally or not. Usually from lack of experience. Extra weight, major bridle changes, loose LE fittings, framing changes, etc. So many modern kites are amazingly good all around that it's pretty easy to throw them very obviously out of balance when trying to tweak for this trick or that, and often they never get back to their intended polyvalent state.

More on topic. I hear people talking about specific issues on kites all the time, how this one rolls up vs that one, sticky flares, etc. On a given kite, if someone has a very strong negative like "this kite won't do XYZ trick" there is always someone there to say "I do XYZ all the time"
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:46 AM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
skb
Trade Count: (+16)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 131


Location: Richmond BC, Canada

WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 10:23 AM »

I've bought a few kites that were thoroughly condemned by members with very impressive post counts, just to see how bad the kites actually were.

In one case at least, the kite I bought displayed none of the deficiencies described and I ended up buying "back-ups" and buying quite a few models by the same designer. I wonder how many sales at GWTW were lost because of the negative ratings...

My conclusion was that either they got a Monday Morning kite or perhaps the critic's flying location wasn't ideal for flying kites.

On the other hand, I've bought quite a few kites that were exalted to the Heavens that I couldn't get rid of fast enough. One of them I bought on 3 different occasions, just to be sure I didn't see eye-to-eye with the kite. Every one soon found a new home, it just wasn't for me.

Eventually I learned which poster's preferences matched my own and ignored those whose didn't.
Logged

Sent from my '09 laptop using Hunt 'n' Peck 2.1
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3049


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 12:55 PM »

When it comes to quality issues, I have no problem stating negatives.

When it comes to how a kite flies, I will temper my comments with my skill level.

I do have a big problem with people naming heavy kites as SULs and then letting their

insane skill levels show how the kite flies in next to nothing.

And even if someone always disagrees with me, then I can be used as a negative indicator.

Kites I have disliked but are well liked:
     Nirvana (not all, but most)
     Machine
     Gemini
     Revolutions (only because they are ugly)
Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
tpatter
Trade Count: (+22)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1981

Location: Seattle, WA

WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 03:37 PM »

Interesting thread.

I agree that most modern high end kites at least fly well - but, for sure, many have far more quirks than others. 

I've only flown a few in recent years that were so shockingly bad that I assumed there was something wrong with them, although they were new, unflown, and directly from the maker.   Perhaps the kites were just overly quirky and did what the designer was going for, but after some time with them, I tend to go back to something that feels more natural to me.  But who knows, I could see someone else looking for those attributes in a kite. 

I think there is a wealth of diversity trick-wise from todays kites with key differentiators being perhaps more subtle, but definitely still there.   It's like saying that most any car will get you around town.  That is generally true, but you will have much more fun in one that you really like and I wouldn't try to park a Suburban in a super-compact spot - its wasn't designed for it!  Smiley


-Tom
Logged

6 kite tom
tcope
Trade Count: (+4)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 490


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 05:10 PM »

First, I would not criticize a kite being out up for sale. That would have more adverse affect against the seller so I don't see the point.

When it comes to a kite, I'd be 100% honest. I don't know that I've ever hated a kite or thought a kite was just all around terrible. Usually I either just "don't connect with it" or I have a few issues with a kite which I'll mention.

I think many people understand that each kite has its characteristics. That is, it's good as somethings and not so good at others.
Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
http://www.utahkitefliers.org
Bob D
Trade Count: (+1)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 573


Location: Saratoga County, NY

« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 04:01 AM »

Yeah, probably not. I don't think the high end kites would deserve my critical feedback because I'm not the kind of flyer that can fly a brick and different kites have different characteristics. My Transfers are great a rotational tricks, my Exile prefers lower wind speeds, my Nirvanas are almost too neutral and don't give tricks away. My Gemini is faster than my abilities. My Deep Space and Widow Maker are just about perfect for what I like to do. (And I'll even fly a Rev just for something different.) It wouldn't be fair to criticize any of these kites just because they all have different strong points. (The Exile really is nice between 6 and 9 mph, or maybe a little lower.)

And the other thing is how can I say anything bad about a kite since I'm not one to brag about my skills? Besides nobody knows where I am on this kite journey. I can't say I have the creds to criticize.
Logged

Bob D.
stapp59
Trade Count: (+5)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


Location: Northern Indiana

WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 04:28 AM »

I don't think I've ever flown a truly bad kite as every kite I've ever owned has been well liked by others. Have had some kites I could not appreciate at the time.  Attempts with the Gem as a newbie come to mind.  Some kites have needed tweaked a little but that's not a fault of the kite, more my preferences.  Some kites are just not my style, again not a fault of the kite.

I no longer look for instant connection with a kite but rather evaluate it along multiple criteria over several months before I decide if I like it or not:

- 2D flying.  Traditional stand there and carve the sky flying.  Figures. Precision. Corners. Ground work. Classic ballet kites excel at this.  If a kite is not a decent flyer I mark it down.

- Bad wind efficiency.  Closely related to 2D flying is the kites ability to fly in crappy winds which I see much more often than laminar flow at an open beach. Some newer full on trick kites are not so good at this.

-3D flying.  Falling with style.  Yes the kite must trick and do ABT (all the basic tricks) well.  If it can't do a rolled up Comete with flic-flacs after every third rotation, that's ok because neither can I.

- Subjectives. Size. Quality. Aesthetics. Overall feel. AoxomoxoA. How does it fit with the rest of the collection.

Kites are like people and snowflakes.  Mostly they are all the same taken as a whole.  It's that last little bit of uniqueness that distinguishes them.

Part of the fun of flying is finding the style and kites that suit you best. That style may change over time.  I had three different Psychos years ago trying to like that kite.  I moved them all on.  Now I see some real potential in that kite.  More on that in a different thread...

For me the best mix of all the above can be found in the Exile.  That kite is not a specialist at any one thing but unassumingly good at everything.  One of its strengths is its crappy wind efficiency.  I can make it fly when all my flippy monsters are laying dead on the ground.  A weakness is that same wind efficiency which loads the sail quickly as the wind picks up and gives the kite a more narrow wind range than some.  I overcome that by havig two different SULs, UL, Std, and variable vent in the car at all times.  Seems a small price to pay to have a favorite kite that can fly in most conditions.

For those on the quest to master the RUCWFFAETR, the Exile is not your kite. Just because the Exile is my kite, does not make it yours.  The Sano also deserves honorable mention.  There are others I'm sure...

[/TIC on]

Kites are like a good spouse.  There is no one perfect model but several will do very well if you pick one, appreciate its inner beauties, accept the small flaws, and work to earn its respect.  Smiley

[/TIC off]
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 06:33 AM by stapp59 » Logged

Steve in Indiana
http://picasaweb.google.com/stapp59

Fly so it looks like you meant it
John Lutter
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


Location: Central Florida

WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 07:43 AM »

I think it's important to point out any manufacturing issues that a kite may have (bad bridle, weak spars, stretchy sail, etc), stuff that would be common among all kite purchases. If you can help in pointing out discrepancies or fixes to those issues, that would also be something that I'd mention.

But I would leave the subjective stuff like, "It flies like crap" type of comments to yourself. I've seen reviews that say stuff like, "it doesn't hold a fade" or "it doesn't do axels as well as..." those are comments that would make me discount the entire review.
Logged

John Lutter
Chief Kite Pusher @ Kite Stop (http://www.kitestop.com)
President @ American Kitefliers Association (http://kite.org)
stapp59
Trade Count: (+5)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


Location: Northern Indiana

WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 12:01 PM »

Current designs seem to be variations on a theme for sure.

Even though kite construction has not changed much, I'd like to think good tools, materials, skills, experience and resources are all necessary to build a quality kite.

"A sewing machine does not a kite builder make" - Yoda.

In fact, most kites are so similar as to be boring. Very few kites are even different enough to be the least bit controversial. Sport kite design has plateaued. People know how to design good kites. The construction has also become standardized. It's to the point where anyone with a sewing machine can make a decent kite. 
Logged

Steve in Indiana
http://picasaweb.google.com/stapp59

Fly so it looks like you meant it
Allen Carter
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+19)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1820

Location: Half Moon Bay, CA

« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 12:36 PM »

Yes, that was an oversimplification, but the point was about the commonality of good design, materials and techniques. People have learned how to design kites that not only fly well but are easy to build well. Easy being relative to older designs, not relative to the skill or experience of the builder. The "easiest" sport kite build is still a pretty big deal for anyone getting started, but is more likely to come out well than in the past.
Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
John Welden
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 05:52 PM »

I don't remember flying anything that was truly terrible except for the SL7. 

Logged
mikenchico
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2173


Location: ‪‪‪‪‪‎Chico, Ca

WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 12:41 PM »

I'd agree with John Lutter, I've read a review from a member on a kite I have flown myself and could not believe the opinions stated and was questioning my opinions until another member reviewed the kite and their review more closely matched my experience. Was it the flier? The conditions? I don't know, what could cause such a large discrepancy of opinions when the kite came from a well respected builder I doubt had let a sub-par kite escape his shop.

There's one kite that often gets recommended to new fliers here on GWTW that I personally despise, I've flown it in many different conditions and have disliked it in every case. But others have liked it, in most of those cases it was their first decent kite so they may be a bit biased or nostalgic. I think I've always kept that to myself and won't name the kite here either, I just recommend a similarly priced alternative in those threads since the thread is usually from a flier working up the kite range the same as those who liked the kite. Am I a snob now that I've flown high end kites? I don't think so, I've enjoyed and purchased many mid range kites even after owning high end kites.
Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
skb
Trade Count: (+16)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 131


Location: Richmond BC, Canada

WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 01:12 PM »

I wonder how many sales have been unintentionally lost when members here make unflattering comments about a kite?
Logged

Sent from my '09 laptop using Hunt 'n' Peck 2.1
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!