GWTW Forum
December 19, 2014, 10:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL  (Read 2914 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
SkyRags
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 27

Location:

« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2014, 12:48 PM »

Skyrags,

In all honestly, unless you get down to the very untricky SULs (ProDancer SUL), most sport kites will require smooth winds, foot motion, noticeable arm waving and 50# lines to fly below 3 mph.

3 mph is about 4.5 ft/ sec, a moderately quick walk is about 3 mph. Next time you are walking near that speed, see how much apparent wind you feel on your face. It is not much.

Remember tricks are about knocking the pressure off the sail, which is the very opposite of what an SUL needs to do to fly in such low winds.

People who have kites which fly from the wind of a bird sneeze at 2 blocks away are probably pretty good fliers or perhaps prone to stretching the truth a bit.  Smiley

I'll definitely take your advice there John - I did kinda think the difference between a SUL and a UL would be degrees...

It's good to hear realistic opinions on what's actually achieveable Smiley

I think I'm really just after a kite that flies just lower than my Talon UL

Today I was trying to fly it in about 3-5km of wind and had to REALLY work it to axel and 540

I'm told that the Talon UL isn't a true UL - more of a light STD - and even the Deep Space UL flies lower - so yeah, it gets a little confusing to an intermediate pilot like myself Smiley

That's nonsense, the talon is a true ul it's just that the ds ul is it's most natural comparison and that flies nearly like an sul.

You need to decide whether you want a true no wind kite or something that is a touch more weighty that has a higher aspect ratio and more trickable. You also can't break the laws of physics and you will need to move a bit.



Moving is not an issue - I walk/run with the Talon to execute tricks so as long as I can keep the kite in the air on very light winds I'm happy

The Talon flies (when I'm walking quickly) at 6-7km at its lowest point - ill do 360's in this wind range
Logged

In my bag: Benson SuperFly, Jest of Eve Talon UL, KaoS Charisma
trigger
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 221

Location:

« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2014, 08:24 PM »

Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   Grin
Logged
SkyRags
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 27

Location:

« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2014, 09:21 PM »

Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   Grin

Oh man...

This is just getting difficult haha
Logged

In my bag: Benson SuperFly, Jest of Eve Talon UL, KaoS Charisma
damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55

Location: UK

« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2014, 09:45 PM »

Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   Grin
+1    (except I've never tried a 4D - I'm comparing with a Benson Inner Space, and it took lots of hours in the air one summer before the Ocius's sail had softened enough to be able to do this.  ...And we have streets rather than blocks here in suburban England)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:49 PM by damp_weather » Logged
dragonfish
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


Location: California

« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2014, 10:58 PM »

Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:46 PM by dragonfish » Logged
SparkieRob
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 153

Location: Perth, Western Australia

« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 02:03 AM »

Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one.

The Scratch Bunnies are going to Burek (don't shoot me if I spelt it poorly but it's a French kite festival?) this year so I'm hoping Carl is going to be part of it.

My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.
Logged

Inbetween Heaven and Earth, there are kites.
KaoS
Trade Count: (+18)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 572


Location: Willunga, South Australia

WWW
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 02:58 AM »


My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.

When quoting a wind range for my sport kites I try to be as accurate as possible, so I measure wind speed with a meter.    One of my pet hates is people spouting guesstimate wind speeds ("...here's a video of me flying a stack in 35 knot winds..." but there's no sand being lifted off the beach and they aren't even leaning back!)

Admittedly, the only flying area I have regular access to is my local beach.  Most days there is a smooth, steady on shore breeze, and this makes a big difference to how easy it is to a. measure the wind speed accurately and b. fly a kite at the bottom end.  At 2km/hr there are ripples on the water and the direction of the wind is apparent on the skin. I'll be walking back to get the kite to climb, and walking forward to "get more beach" while gliding the kite away.

If the wind speed drops and the water surface goes glassy, I can do 360's with the Temptation UL ... but I run out of puff pretty quickly at my age :-)


** EDIT**  ...it's "Berck"   Grin
Logged

Kevin Sanders

Willunga, South Australia
harveystubbs
Trade Count: (+10)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 380


Location:

« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 03:58 AM »


My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.

When quoting a wind range for my sport kites I try to be as accurate as possible, so I measure wind speed with a meter.    One of my pet hates is people spouting guesstimate wind speeds ("...here's a video of me flying a stack in 35 knot winds..." but there's no sand being lifted off the beach and they aren't even leaning back!)

Admittedly, the only flying area I have regular access to is my local beach.  Most days there is a smooth, steady on shore breeze, and this makes a big difference to how easy it is to a. measure the wind speed accurately and b. fly a kite at the bottom end.  At 2km/hr there are ripples on the water and the direction of the wind is apparent on the skin. I'll be walking back to get the kite to climb, and walking forward to "get more beach" while gliding the kite away.

If the wind speed drops and the water surface goes glassy, I can do 360's with the Temptation UL ... but I run out of puff pretty quickly at my age :-)


** EDIT**  ...it's "Berck"   Grin

Nicely put ..... people talk a lot of balls when it comes to wind speed but I like your description  Cool
Logged
Gamelord
Trade Count: (+2)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 600


Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

WWW
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 07:57 PM »

Can't add much to what has already been said.  My go to kites when the wind is low is my Widow Maker UL (can fly down to 2-3 mph and still trick with foot movement and my Ocius SUL - basically indoor with a lot of foot movement, very little movement when the wind gets around 1mph and still tricky.  As stated already, the SUL and UL do not trick the same as the standard.  Because of the major loss of mass, the SUL needs a lot of patience and coaxing to trick.  The UL not as much but more than a normal standard does.

I highly suggest either one of these for the ultimate in light wind flying while still able to do nearly all the tricks.
Logged

Bob D
Trade Count: (+1)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 586


Location: Saratoga County, NY

« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2014, 08:09 AM »

Interesting topic. I have a Nirvana SUL that I can't do much with considering the low mass. Is it me or do the other SULs with similar mass require the same amount of skill to coax tricks? I might definitely go for something that I could trick better but I'm thinking that low mass is low mass and it's a matter of skill, experience, and ability to move and put air into the sail. (I don't fly the Nirvana SUL too much because if the leaves are barely moving on the trees there isn't anything closer to the ground that will keep the kite in the air. Maybe I should look at something like the Prism Zero G...) Thoughts? Suggestions? Is the ATM as wonderful as everyone suggests?
Logged

Bob D.
harveystubbs
Trade Count: (+10)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 380


Location:

« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2014, 09:12 AM »

Where is the ATM made? I heard it is made outside the USA?
Logged
SkyRags
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 27

Location:

« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2014, 12:56 AM »

Well so far the list INCLUDES (But not limited to)

Veyron SUL
VEGA/VITAL SUL


Short list I know...but these seem ideal
Logged

In my bag: Benson SuperFly, Jest of Eve Talon UL, KaoS Charisma
tpatter
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2010

Location: Seattle, WA

WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2014, 08:04 AM »

I would consider HUGO or BILL as well.   

HUGO certainly goes well into UL territory and just feels magical on the lines.   I've also flown it beside SULs with some work - amazing sail pressure.   BILL all the above, but just feels much lighter on the lines and goes lower with far less effort.   
Logged

6 kite tom
damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55

Location: UK

« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2014, 02:03 PM »

....Nicely put ..... people talk a lot of balls when it comes to wind speed but I like your description  Cool
Speaking for myself, I don't really believe that birds clearing nasal irritation help an Ocius SUL to fly - that's 'poetic license' to cover up for routinely carrying and often using a wind meter and for testing very low wind speeds by dropping leaves and blades of grass and looking for a bias in the direction they fall in. 
For example last Wednesday, the grass repeatedly fell vertically downwards from the hand held stretched out above the head.  From that I am reasonably confident that for at least the first eight feet above the ground the air was still.

However, at my local flying site, it is common for the air at greater heights to be moving faster.  We know this subjectively from the way the kite flies and objectively once from observing a small hot air balloon rise up and travel known distances in measured times.  From the hot air balloon experiment many months ago, the average wind speed at ~100 feet was between 4 and 6mph, while the wind meter at ~8 feet would report 2 to 2 1/2 mph.
Last Wednesday, there may not have been any measurable wind at human head and outstretched arm height.  But from trying a 360 and finding that very fast walking was required for part of the rotation, one can guesstimate that there could have been 2 to 3mph wind at 20 to 30 feet.

Perhaps the best measure isn't a wind meter, unless one also has a very long pole to mount it on and a means to read it from below, but from comparing kites side by side.  From those tests, I can say that a broken-in Ocius SUL flies as low and with as little flyer effort as a Benson Inner Space. - Still a subjective assessment, but the best I can do with the equipment at hand. 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 04:05 PM by damp_weather » Logged
damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55

Location: UK

« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2014, 02:31 PM »

Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one. 
I hope you get the chance to fly one too. Furies are very precise for precision and ballet.  But they aren't to everyone's taste.  A Fury 0.85 AS UL was the first high quality kite we bought, and we struggled with it.  Partly because of its strong pull in higher winds, and partly because it couldn't cope with the frequent low wind speeds we have.  It was because of the challenge we had with this kite that we looked further afield for pairs ballet kites, and settled on Prism Quantum Pros.
When we were looking, the Fury SUL hadn't come out.  I saw that new kite being flown at Swindon kite festival ~2009 or 2010 by the local team.  My wind meter was showing 2 to 2 1/2 mph, yet they had had to walk backwards and were now right at the barrier tape on windward side of the field, and having to land the kites.  So the Fury SUL wasn't a low wind panacea.

If you want to fly precision and ballet competition in very low winds, how about one of the Air Dynamics T5 SULs?  No, I haven't flown a T5, but last year I spent half a day flying some other T series kites, and was very impressed with their control and precision, while they didn't pull like a truck when the wind got up.  The gentle turns routinely seen in the team displays at UK festivals must have been a deliberate choice, rather than the turns had to be that slow and wide.
Air Dynamics even does a Cuban (Cuben fabric) version of the SUL.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 08:26 PM by damp_weather » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Kite Classifieds Ad
Fly Market

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!