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Author Topic: Vietnam flute kite  (Read 6655 times)
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Roger
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2018, 09:32 AM »

I am always interested in any aeolian device and I am absolutely gobsmacked by the sound these flute kites make.  I NEED to make something similar.  I'm not thrilled with the kite itself but the flute, oh my.  Thing is I live only about 5 miles from Little Saigon  Huh  Do you think I will be checking this out?
 Smiley


While I like the kites, I too am primarily interested in the flutes & I expect no problems putting flutes on my polyhedral kites.

Here's a super resource on all things aeolian that put me onto the article I linked above. Bibliography of Kite Musical - / Aeolian Instruments

It's where I found the paper on dieu sao I linked to earlier. I also figured out where the English version is; find it here: > Dieu Sao...Some preliminary notes on the Flute Kites of Vietnam

The 'weeping bamboo' aeolian instrument may also be adaptable to kite use and I will poke into that as time allows. Keep us posted on anything you find in Little Saigon Oldgoat!  Smiley

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Roger
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2018, 10:21 AM »

So I planed the split surface flat and I'm ready to start laying out the cuts. The size affects the pitch as I understand it, but I have a tin ear so I will be focusing on the proportions. I'll get these proportions from photos, looking for the proportions of tube diameter-to-length as well as sound hole width-to-length. For this initial build I'm using 1 3/4" cardboard tube.  Cool

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 10:45 AM by Roger » Logged
breezin
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 03:57 PM »

Google piano tuner. There you will find and be able to hear the musical notes. Center of the pianos keyboard is middle c. Basic chordal harmony moves in 3rds up and down the scale.Notes go to g. Starting at c note #1 ending on b note #7. Making a c chord so the flutes would sound harmonious would be the notes ceg #s 1, 3, 5 of the musical c scale. The c scale has no sharps and flats(pianos black keys)With 3 flutes with a different note on either end flute 1 could be c and g. 2 could be e and c.3 could be g and e. Any combination of those notes when the kite is moving will sound good. Add the 7 note b and you then make a 7 chord which makes us jazz fans giggle, drool and boogie all at the same time.
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A free people follow neither politician nor preacher. They are servants. Exalted to leadership their desires no matter how noble lead to poverty, despair and destruction. Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790 Life long kite flyer.
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 05:33 PM »

Google piano tuner. There you will find and be able to hear the musical notes. Center of the pianos keyboard is middle c. Basic chordal harmony moves in 3rds up and down the scale.Notes go to g. Starting at c note #1 ending on b note #7. Making a c chord so the flutes would sound harmonious would be the notes ceg #s 1, 3, 5 of the musical c scale. The c scale has no sharps and flats(pianos black keys)With 3 flutes with a different note on either end flute 1 could be c and g. 2 could be e and c.3 could be g and e. Any combination of those notes when the kite is moving will sound good. Add the 7 note b and you then make a 7 chord which makes us jazz fans giggle, drool and boogie all at the same time.

Thanks breezin! Not sure how well I can honor all that, but I do appreciate your effort. In my continuing reading of Wahl & Chapman's essay (published 2012)  they say the flute making is something of a dying art and much has been lost and makers are somewhat secretive about their methods, including the tuning. On an aside that may interest you as a musician, they also mention an elderly kite & flute maker playing a single string instrument at a dieu sao festival called a 'Dan Bau'.

If you haven't yet watched a video and heard these kite flutes, here is the one my dentist sent me. I'd love to hear your musical evaluation and whether the sound makes you giggle, drool, and/or boogie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CsrkEDq5f4&feature=youtu.be

Progress so far: Sawed out my round blank and started carving the little shelf around the inside of the cap that supports & aligns the tube.  Cool




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Roger
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2018, 07:04 PM »

Lam Hoac brought a set of flutes back from Vietnam for my kite.
It sounds a bit like a far-off train whistle.

clickable thumbnails

Sweet! Any chance you would take some measurements for me & post them? I'm wanting the ratios of tube diameter-to-tube length and sound hole width-to-length. I only have photos to try & get these proportions as of now. Much appreciated and very cool. Lam's the man.  Smiley

EDIT: No need to bother on those measurements as Wahl & Chapman's paper has details in the latter parts. Thanks anyway for the pics!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:11 PM by Roger » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2018, 12:23 PM »

skb: how does that attach to your kite???
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Roger
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2018, 02:36 PM »

I think I'll bring the flutes down to WSIKF, you can check them out in person.

That will be super! Did Lam say who built them? A number of flute makers are profiled in Wahl & Johnston's report and it would be interesting if one of them made your flutes. If you haven't read the report I highly recommend it. It's lengthy, but packed with history, culture, and technical data. Apparently all flute sets are odd numbers as even numbers are considered bad luck. (Never mind that each tube is 2 flutes so 5 tubes are 10 flutes.  Cheesy )

Meantime, I have cut my tube @ 90mm, just over 2:1 length-to-width per the report.  As tuning can be accomplished by moving an interior plug, this gives me a little room for adjustment. I'm looking into an app for guitar tuning that will let me tune the flute in spite of my tin ear. At the very least I can determine the pitch, even if it's not 'musical'.   Embarrassed
Today I started roughing the exterior and cutting the sound hole from the inside.



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bt
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2018, 03:10 PM »

MMMMM.....tuning.......
Lots of theories and options...plus everything is musical...even a tin ear!!!
Rather than going for "specific notes" per se go for for the interval ratio....especially if constructing the flutes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_ratio

Scroll down to second paragraph in the usage part where it gets right to certain intervals.

This way the flutes will be in tune with themselves irregardless if the root note or tone is "out of pitch". The whole A440 vs A432 as an example or any implementation of microtonal music.
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breezin
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2018, 07:13 PM »

I didn't giggle or boogie. Just drooled a bit in awe  Embarrassed. This is some of the coolest kiting I've seen so far.
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A free people follow neither politician nor preacher. They are servants. Exalted to leadership their desires no matter how noble lead to poverty, despair and destruction. Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790 Life long kite flyer.
Oldgoat
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2018, 08:18 AM »

Well I went to Little Saigon yesterday and tried to find the cultural center but couldn't.  When you don't know the language the shops and signs can be a bit overwhelming.  So bottom line, as they say, "no joy."  I will have to rely on some of my Vietnamese friends for help.  Various kinds of flutes are fairly easy to come up with all the way from kid's toys to the more serious.  It is the fabrication/adaptation of the head or "mouthpiece" that can't quite figure out how to make.  I would have to have something far easier than carving out the thing as you are doing Roger.
I feel some experimentation coming on  Wink
 Smiley
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Roger
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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2018, 10:52 AM »

Well I went to Little Saigon yesterday and tried to find the cultural center but couldn't.  When you don't know the language the shops and signs can be a bit overwhelming.  So bottom line, as they say, "no joy."  I will have to rely on some of my Vietnamese friends for help.  Various kinds of flutes are fairly easy to come up with all the way from kid's toys to the more serious.  It is the fabrication/adaptation of the head or "mouthpiece" that can't quite figure out how to make.  I would have to have something far easier than carving out the thing as you are doing Roger.
I feel some experimentation coming on  Wink
 Smiley


 Cheesy I still have the tricky part of the sound hole to carve and no guarantee it will work then, so I'm right there with you on finding something simpler down the path. Fortunately I think there is some joy in our future.
I earlier mentioned in passing the 'weeping bamboo', aka the bamboo aeolian organ. Here's Uli Wahl's page on it with photos and technical descriptions: > The Famous 'Weeping Bamboo' or Bamboo Aeolian Organ

On page 36 of Wahl and Johnston's Some Preliminary Notes on the Flute Kites of Vietnam there are descriptions and photos of a Friendship Flute that has both weeping bamboo type and 'standard' dieu sao as I am building. It is actually 4 flutes in a single structure.

Quote
Page 36
Friendship Flute.
Mr. Nguyễn Hữu Kiêm presented Uli with a special single flute that he had made. This is a “one off” flute comprising four sound tubes with two pairs of matched flutes and two different types of sound-holes. The  outer flutes are  traditionally  Vietnamese  and  the  other,  inner  set,  employ  the principle used in Kalimantan in Indonesia. It was named the “Friendship” flute “tình bạn cây sáo. ...


The dead-center openings of the friendship flute (as on the flutes Lam brought to skb) are not part of the sounding effect, rather the square one is for the mounting stick and the rectangular opening is part decoration, part weight-reducing, and part access port to the stick attachment.

I think either PVC or ABS plastic plumbing pipe would work for making a weeping bamboo flute. Of course you could try bamboo, but the machinations the Vietnamese builders go through to get & prepare suitable bamboo that won't split don't bode well for finding something suitable in the US. I think the ABS would be best as it has somewhat thick walls that can accommodate the shaping required for the sound-hole.  Smiley
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Roger
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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 03:41 PM »

It was a bit of a puzzle to do this without Lam's help and somehow I'd lost a few parts for mounting so I had to make some new ones.

Nice!
Quoting from Wahl & Chapman:
Quote
At first sight the Vietnamese kite flutes appear generically similar, however it quickly becomes clear that there are a great many varieties and it is probable that each village has its own variant. Each flute maker will have his distinct “signature”.
There are differences in the relationship between the flute length to flute diameter, the shape of the flute cap, the form of the sound-hole, and the relationship between the sound-hole length to its depth as well as  the  shape  of  the central omponents that  separate the  individual  flute  chambers and  provide  the attachment  fitting  to  the  flute mounting  stick.  Indeed  the  flutes  of Mr Ngô Văn Bội simply used the natural bamboo node. All of these factors are taken into consideration by individual flute makers in order to adapt their flutes to the expected wind speed as well as the desired sound quality when in flight.
Flutes are almost always made as a single unit comprising a pair of individual flutes tuned such that there is a distinctive beat."

So the mount needs tuning as well as the flutes. The wind will tell. On the red, note I am making only a single flute so there will be no beat as in traditional form.

On my project I was nearing the point where I have to cut the slot all the way through the cap. I decided to drill some through-holes a bit off the final edges so i can see where to cut from the outside and minimize any splitting. The holes also lessen the whitlin', which has me with a couple blisters now. Cheesy

Anyway, I got to looking at the holes and took the idea that leaving them might add 'overtones' if that is the correct acoustic term. I suspect each hole should be relieved inside on the leeward side just as with a single large opening. The number, size, and location of the holes would all be variables for experiment.

Well, I better stick with the traditional for now. As to mounting I figure to glue a stick along the tube rather than perpendicular as a number of my kites have horizontal struts. I will just replace the appropriate strut with the strut glued to the tube. I just built a Flymaxion for my son and I'll grab a pick of what I intend.



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Roger
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2018, 04:19 PM »

Here's how I propose to mount my flute on a Flymaxion.


This video below is my original Flymaxion on its maiden flight at Long Beach a couple weeks before last year's festival. The rocking I corrected with an adjustable third bridle leg running to the lower-front vertex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPQdfvpBFNs
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Roger
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2018, 06:25 PM »

Today I got the cap to what looked like a good testing stage and yada yada yada, bleh bleh bleh, Bob's yer uncle, F4 341.8Hz flute.


Audio-video: > https://youtu.be/p7mjAYdl_9U

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Oldgoat
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2018, 09:07 AM »

Wow Roger, it appears that you are well on your way to having a successful flute.  So what did you use as a wind source for the test?  I'm still deliberating about what to use as basic materials.  Leaning toward PVC but trying to think of something as easy to work and as inexpensive that would be a little lighter.  The end cap is still an issue for me.  This is one of those times I wish I new more (read knew anything) about 3D printing.  I'm thinking someone with the right skill set could knock out terrific and consistent end caps in no time if they had the right blueprint.
 Smiley

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