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Author Topic: The 540 - Hit or Miss  (Read 5815 times)
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asburyparkjohn
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« on: August 17, 2009, 07:24 AM »

I am breaking through the 540 - sometimes I get it -  sometimes I don't. On the left edge flying down  at 45 degrees - How do you do your right hand hand imput? Does it change in different winds? I am low - my left arm extended - a one foot input (pull) more outward than towards me with the right hand - easier of course with a SUL or UL. It seems after the input the hand must come back to neutral (home) QUICKLY with a one or two step forward walk. What are your key thoughts say when doing the 540 with a standard kite say in 8-10 mph winds with your right hand and foot movement? Just curious. 
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In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
randyg
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 07:58 AM »

Run!

The 540 entry needs to be vertical or nearly so. There are some videos out there with pilots hand movements that might be of some help. An outward pull does nothing but look goofy. Pull straight back by your side.
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obijuankenobe
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 09:19 AM »

One thing that I think is not mentioned enough is that in higher winds, not only do you need to move fast, but at the right time. 

If you want to do a 540 in stiff winds, you don't want to start the run until you are throwing the lead hand for the flare, for example.  Before that, and you are only making things harder for yourself.  In other words, the timing of the slack is exactly the same in higher winds, but the speed and movement necessary to create it increases.

obi
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 10:27 AM »

Thanks Randy - I of course have studied your Video along with Mama (i.e.,540 Studies). Interesting you would say vertical is EASIER? Vertical in the corner of the window with the wind being the easiest? Yes? I will try the pull straight back input. It seems its a bit difficult to judge on how much slack should be given at times ... probably because I have just started to break the trick down. I either get that 180 spin with a nose pop-up or a wing wrap after 360*. Randy - does the nose position help in this trick - after the flare is there a SIGN on when to hit the input to start the rotation? Does the nose up help here in your opinion?
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tpatter
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 12:19 PM »

One thing I do in higher winds is to build up a little additional sail pressure (pull both lines evenly) right before the flare, move forward.   I think it helps to give you a little more time/slack and the kite flattens out more dramatically - anyhow, thats how I was taught to do them.
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 12:47 PM »

I'm in the same boat myself.........the pull starts before the lead hand, in this case the left, finishes the flare.  I can get it everytime I remember to turn my body sideways to the kite...if I don't......it fails.....everytime Cry

Jim
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Gamelord
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 01:06 PM »

A very flat 540 is very beautiful, if you don't get the kite flat enough then the 540 doesn't work very well.  If you let the nose of the kite go up to far then you will tip wrap and/or the 540 will end up on the ground in a mess.  Monitoring how much line tension you have on your lines before you execute the 540 will help you dial in the trick.

The way I do them is to bring the kite nose up and then turn the kite nose down towards the ground.  As I make the turn, I step forwards and bring my hands as far behind me as possible.  Walking forward (as wind requires), I bring the kite down slowly until I get to where I am going to perform the 540.  Sweep both hands forward quickly so that the kite flares out on its belly.  You should be walking forward and moving your hands forward at the same time (as wind requires) to get the kite to flare - belly down, nose pointing away.  Now here's the trick.  As you sweep your hands forward, slow your "pull" hand as it comes barely past your leg while letting your other hand sweep all the way forward, what this does is lets the kite flare but also starts the kite into the turn of the 540.  As the 540 begins, give the back hand (the one that slowed down) a pop and then throw it forward to match the other hand.

I call it a "Draw-pop" move.  As you sweep your hands forward you draw one side of the kite back slightly and then pop it around. What you will feel is that the hand you are going to initiate the 540 with will have the slightest bit of tension on it while the other hand is completely slack.  With a little timing, you will know when to pop the tensioned line to get the kite to spin around and complete the 540.

I always have to pre-think which side I am going to do the 540 on before I start to make sure I draw and pop the correct hand. lol  If I am going to 540 on the right side of the window, I hold back and pop my left hand.  If on the left, then the right hand.

Hope this helps.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2009, 01:21 PM »

Does what side of the window you're on really matter?

I only pull 540s with my left hand and I do 'em on either side of the window.

Some day I'll take the time to learn them the opposite way...

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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 01:39 PM »

Thanks Gamelord. Its an interesting trick in that after the pull that hand MUST join the other hand already out forward. If the off-hand (or arm actually) is not out and after the pop that hand does not go to neutral (i.e., joining hands) immediately it seems the trick is ALWAYS doomed to failure. I like the idea of pulling back equally on both lines to give you more of an EDGE in higher winds or even in moderate? winds. As with any trick after awhile you get that feel on how much SLACK is going to make the trick WORK. I will try that slower motion with the pop hand waiting for that slight tension to occur before the input. This is new to me and it seems to be a KEY to the trick. I really feel this was what I was missing. When to input?
Its an interesting tip Gamelord like the Yo-Yo - where in any video does it indicate that wrapping the lines two or three times makes Yo-Yo's EASIER? When do you pull for the 540? Thanks - I will try it a couple of dozen times next time in the field - waiting for the slight TENSION prior to inputing.
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In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 04:05 PM »

slack is key as ANY tension of the lines while rotating will stop the kite dead in it's tracks. after you initiate rotation, you don't want the lines taut again until you're ready to fly off.

come to think of it, as to sides of the window, on the left side i'm always doing right handed clockwise rotations, and on the right side it's always doing left handed counter clockwise rotations. i'll have to try it reversed but atm mine do have sides i guess.

as to when to pull, it should be when your tug arm is at your side (from sweeping behind you) and the other is extended in front of you. this position really shouldn't change with wind, what will change with wind is how you move your feet and how quickly you swing your arms.

no matter the wind range of the kite, i'd say this trick is FAR easier to learn in the bottom half of your kites wind range instead of the top half.

so for ul - 2-3ish instead of 5-6ish or standard 4-6ish instead of 7-9ish.
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randyg
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 05:31 PM »

Thanks Randy - I of course have studied your Video along with Mama (i.e.,540 Studies). Interesting you would say vertical is EASIER? Vertical in the corner of the window with the wind being the easiest? Yes? I will try the pull straight back input. It seems its a bit difficult to judge on how much slack should be given at times ... probably because I have just started to break the trick down. I either get that 180 spin with a nose pop-up or a wing wrap after 360*. Randy - does the nose position help in this trick - after the flare is there a SIGN on when to hit the input to start the rotation? Does the nose up help here in your opinion?
I didn't say vertical was easier. I personally don't call it a 540 if the entry is at 45 degrees. Being a TP hack might explain such a character flaw. Cheesy

The more you do this trick the easier it'll be. Duh! Kiss The nose position is key but you'll have to figure that out for each kite you perform the trick with. That's the fun part. Tip wraps are easy...don't do 'em. Dose your slack; again a part you have figure out at the field. Yeah, I guess the nose up helps on some kites but get it too high and the chance for a tip wrap increases.

When the wind dies down, work on the 540 with a UL or SUL. I would suggest alternating one to the left and one to the right, over and over and over. You for sure want to learn this with both hands.
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 05:35 PM »

Good point Fidelio - I find the 540 easiest with my Benson Inner Space in 1-2 mph than with say the Sea Devil - Standard. I can do 80%+ with the BIS but with SD-Standard its about 10% at this point. Its obvious to me its MORE SLACK but every trick has some key points ... was just wondering if anybody had any key points I may have overlooked in the videos particularly in higher winds ... but as an example like an easy trick like the Lazy Susan ... I wait for the wing tip to RISE before I input the 360* rotation ... was just thinking if the kite position had a key position before the input. I seem to input right after the flat rotation. Should I wait for a SIGN? If you notice the MAMA videos he is in very low wind conditions doing the rotations on some 540s with the nose way up due to these wind conditions ... what about at 10 mph? I will try the Gamelord tension idea. This is my main point for this inquiry - when to hit the rotation.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 04:00 AM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 06:23 PM »

Thanks Randy - I will keep that in mind concerning the nose height.
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Steve
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 06:37 PM »

"older school" kites generally will handle the 540 better than the modern, pitch friendly trick kites.
Have you tried doing a vertical slot instead?  Not quite as elegant, but might be easier and I find I have a pretty good success rate in higher winds.
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Bob D
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 05:18 AM »

I've found that some kites do certain tricks better than others. For 540s I've had great luck with the Exile, the Fearless and the Nirvana UL.

I have trouble with getting the nose of the Nirvana VV to flare up. And it's probably me, but it's not easy for me to 540 the Transfer xt.r.

The tip that got me to make it work is turning side-ways to extend my outside arm and remembering to keep the hand of my inside arm close to my hip before giving the line a tug to pop the 540.
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Bob D.
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