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Author Topic: The 540 - Hit or Miss  (Read 5607 times)
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RonG
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 05:43 AM »

Being a TP hack might explain such a character flaw. Cheesy
Hardly a character flaw!  Smiley

One of the best things about Tricks Party is that it established some standards  Cool
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DWayne
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 06:27 AM »

If you really want to increase the rate at which you progress, empty your kite bag. Pick a kite and fly that kite for five or six hundred hours.  Wink


Denny
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I always wanted to be a procrastinator..........
I just never got around to it.
RobB
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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 07:02 AM »

Yeah, I have to agree with the whole flying one kite for a while. It looks like you've got the wind range covered in Sea Devils... Leave the others at home. Don't give yourself the choice. I've been doing that for the last few months and it certainly cuts the time spent getting used to what you're flying today. I miss my other kites, but I think I am focusing more on how to fly the trick, not the kite.
~Rob.
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Gamelord
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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2009, 11:55 AM »

Does what side of the window you're on really matter?

I only pull 540s with my left hand and I do 'em on either side of the window.

Some day I'll take the time to learn them the opposite way...



Technically you can rotate the 540 with either hand pretty much anywhere in the wind window once you get the trick nailed.  For beginners I found that it is easiest to perform the trick on the far edge of the window in the least amount of wind.  Rotating towards the center of the window (from the far edge) seems to help the kite pull out of the 540 easier after the rotations.  When I first started learning the 540 I could only do them on the edge of the window, now that I have more experience with the trick I can do them in most wind conditions and pretty much anywhere in the window and don't have to resort the the far edge every time.

If the wind is super light - to the point of the kite barely staying in the air then you don't need to bother with the edge of the window at all and can do them directly downwind.

Hope that helps. Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2009, 12:10 PM »

Good point Fidelio - I find the 540 easiest with my Benson Inner Space in 1-2 mph than with say the Sea Devil - Standard. I can do 80%+ with the BIS but with SD-Standard its about 10% at this point. Its obvious to me its MORE SLACK but every trick has some key points ... was just wondering if anybody had any key points I may have overlooked in the videos particularly in higher winds ... but as an example like an easy trick like the Lazy Susan ... I wait for the wing tip to RISE before I input the 360* rotation ... was just thinking if the kite position had a key position before the input. I seem to input right after the flat rotation. Should I wait for a SIGN? If you notice the MAMA videos he is in very low wind conditions doing the rotations on some 540s with the nose way up due to these wind conditions ... what about at 10 mph? I will try the Gamelord tension idea. This is my main point for this inquiry - when to hit the rotation.

Don't want to speak for Fidelio but may be able to comment on this one a little:

The BIS and DS are somewhat on opposite ends of the scale for flying characteristics.  I have flown both and watched Fidelio fly his Deep Space a lot (with some jealously as he makes that kite really perform well) and the difference between the two is even hard to compare.

Doing a 540 with the Inner Space requires some finesse and patience.  When you flare the kite out you wait slightly for the nose to come flat and wait for the wing to start rotating around and then give it a smooth pop to rotate.  When done perfectly the Inner Space will jump up about 3-4 feet, rotate cleanly and flat and then fold open to fly out.  Very graceful.  This is not the Deep Space in any way.  Cheesy  With the Deep Space the 540 is done almost violently in comparison.  The flare is very fast and abrupt, the nose barely gets to the flat position while the kite starts its rotation and the pop is fast and very pronounced. The Deep Space will flip the entire 540 about as fast as the Inner Space will axle.  The 540 on the Deep Space is fast and exciting to watch, the trick is done pretty much before you realize what it was.  Timing is everything.  If you are waiting for the Deep Space nose to come up and float like the Inner Space you are too late and will probably end up with a tip wrap.  The tug on the Deep Space is so quick that it may appear that the nose of the kite is still pointing slightly towards the ground but when done properly will give you a very flat and fast 540.  It's like Flare-pop-spin and your done.  The neat thing about the Deep Space is that you can snap the 540 off in pretty much any wind condition because the kite flips onto its belly/back so quickly.  Just remember to throw in some fast slack.

Hope this helps.
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 12:44 PM »

I have competition kites (SDs) and fun kites in my bag. Whenever I am perfecting or learning new tricks its on the Sea Devils. Jumping from kite to kite is a killer -- I fly these others just for fun and in some ways to take some of the wear/tear off the SDs. Its also refreshing to fly something new or different once in awhile. Some kites do some things well and other things not so well ... we hear that alot here and its of course TRUE ... but to be honest I have taken some recent advice to gospel ... if you really want to excel in trick flying LEARN that ONE kite INSIDE/OUT ... some annoying guy in CT. recently told me that ... THANKS!  Grin Grin Grin
On a seperate note along these lines ... I still can not figure out why Kitehouse built the Ghost that can multi-lazy like Crazy but its like a nightmare to flare/FADE the damn thing  Cry ... did not say broken axel to a Fade but flare to FADE. I have tested it out in perfect beach winds ... yes NYC ... I am staying with the FOURTH knot from the LEs as the stock setting ... still see no value in any of the other bridle settings!!!??? Also - NYC - I tried Knot six as you suggested to make the JLs easier and it does help a little bit but still no where near as smooth as the QPRo or SD. I will still work this kite but its a WEIRD ANIMAL.  Embarrassed One thing is for sure ... this kite REALLY grabs the wind  Smiley... LOW WIND that is ... WONDERFUL. Interesting to note that the Prism "Z" and GHOST have the same SIZE weight in the tail section.  Wink.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:58 PM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
zippy8
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 10:09 PM »

Interesting to note that the Prism "Z" and GHOST have the same SIZE weight in the tail section.  Wink.


The Prism and Kitehouse standard weights.

Mike.
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benjai
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2009, 05:02 AM »

I echo all the stuff above. For me, it's about timing and off-hand slack. Sometimes I get lazy and don't flare the kite properly, but generally failures are down to insufficient slack. I went at this trick pretty hard a few months ago, and the video below shows a 20 minute session where I did nothing but 540's, trying to get flatter and practicing both hands. There's a segment in the middle that shows my inputs. Hope it's of some help...

540 practice
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2009, 06:38 AM »

Thanks Benjai - Your much more advanced into this trick than myself - just a thought however - and this is for everybody - is the 540 easier if the body continues in motion forward during the hand input and hand joining - your feet seem to STOP after the hand input (at times) - I know I have been conscious of this myself in making this rotation easier- I have been forcing myself to continue forward with my FEET after the input and hand joining - feels weird as most tricks do not require this combination of still walking forward (not a step but walking) AFTER the input - GOOD ADVICE EVERYONE - Some new things to try - 1. Try standing sideways to the kite, 2. Input hand close to the hip and brought forward SLOWER than the off-hand, 3. Feel the light tension prior to the input - all new tips - THANKS. As with any new trick eventually whose thinking after 48/50 540's in an afternoon ...
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In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
JimB
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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2009, 08:36 AM »

Did anybody post the ABW Eesy Peezey Method™ to this thread yet?

Here's a page:

http://wardley.org/kites/reckites/freestyle/ezpz540.html

Pay particular attention to the Crap ASCII-Art™ under "The Uneven Kill" section.

One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 08:58 AM by JimB » Logged
RonG
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« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2009, 08:50 AM »

I echo all the stuff above. For me, it's about timing and off-hand slack. Sometimes I get lazy and don't flare the kite properly, but generally failures are down to insufficient slack. I went at this trick pretty hard a few months ago, and the video below shows a 20 minute session where I did nothing but 540's, trying to get flatter and practicing both hands. There's a segment in the middle that shows my inputs. Hope it's of some help...

540 practice


I don't know what kind of kite that is, but it appears to really hate 540's  Sad
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2009, 09:08 AM »

I read this before JB as gospel which is why I started to learn the 540 trick by flying to the left window corner at 45* since I am right-handed person (right hand input for clockwise rotations). Oddly enough I think there is a seperate trick in which you flare out and rotate it 180* and then fly off -  a pre540 learning curve trick - can't recall that trick name now ...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 09:12 AM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 09:18 AM »

One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.



Sam Eaton©

Ronnie... you may have noticed that the kids call them 540s now and not 540 Flat Spins. The clue is there in the name.  Sad

Mike.
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JimB
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 09:22 AM »

Right handed inputs for counterclock-wise rotations...

It can be hard to learn a solid 540 on modern stunt kites.

They tend to pitch very easily resulting in an over-rotation rather than a pancaked kite.

The big danger with old school kites wasn't getting too much pitch, it was getting enough. Quite often the failure mode was powering the kite into the ground. Expensive.

It also seems that what people are calling a 540 these days, is actually more of a slot machine.

It's pretty easy to get a modern design to go flat and then bang it around.

It's much harder to do a classic 540 with the kite in a stalled pancake and then rotate it around flat.

It's worth learning the 540 from the ABW page, even though you will now have to control how far away the nose goes with the new kites, just to understand the mechanics of a classic 540. It's different than a slot.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 09:35 AM by JimB » Logged
JimB
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2009, 09:33 AM »

And that's probably why it's better to learn the slot first, even easier these days.

Just bang twice on the upper wing and slack.

Worry about cleaning it up later.

That'll get you started though.

One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.



Sam Eaton©

Ronnie... you may have noticed that the kids call them 540s now and not 540 Flat Spins. The clue is there in the name.  Sad

Mike.
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