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Author Topic: The 540 - Hit or Miss  (Read 5392 times)
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 10:22 AM »

I wish I had learnt the Slot first, but most of the kites I was flying at the time were not very slot friendly. One day after I'd been flying for a few years, Dan Whitney showed me how he was doing slots on his Gemini and the whole thing fell into place. 

I tend to look at aggressive 540s and slots as being two sides of the same sandwich, but slow, flat 540s (old skool) are sort of a different thing. A croissant, maybe.
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RonG
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 10:26 AM »

Let's not forget that a nice, "by the book" slot is not a slash-and-hack, aggressive thing either.  A pop with one hand and release with the other to flatten the kite and turn the nose away, then another pop to initiate the spin.  The nicest ones have the instant of pause after the kite flares, then a well-timed pop and slack to produce a nice, flat spin.  And of course the all important clean, perfectly horizontal exit  Smiley
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JimB
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 03:20 PM »

That's very true but for someone just trying to get an idea, slash and hack may work to begin with. I'm all for "pretty", but there are some who will settle for "dirty" just to get started. And that's not so hard on a lot of newer kites.

Let's not forget that a nice, "by the book" slot is not a slash-and-hack, aggressive thing either.  A pop with one hand and release with the other to flatten the kite and turn the nose away, then another pop to initiate the spin.  The nicest ones have the instant of pause after the kite flares, then a well-timed pop and slack to produce a nice, flat spin.  And of course the all important clean, perfectly horizontal exit  Smiley
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chilese
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 03:36 PM »

Acceptable 540 at 40 seconds in. I've done better, and I've done worse.

Virtual Freestyle 10: John Chilese


Please, no comments on the lack of tricks in a VF entry. I realize my Freestyle doesn't meet the standards of some here on the Forum.  Embarrassed
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RobB
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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2009, 04:52 AM »

Holy cr@p, John, that 540 almost took that other guy's toupee off !  Cheesy
What was that, a Vapor you were flying ? Either that or an Illusion? Those older Prism kites do some nice 540s, and I have found them to be pretty easy and nice looking on the Qpro, too. I used to wonder (before I could do a 540) if the rotation should go towards the center or the side of the wind window, but have found that it can go either way, on either side.

OK, stupid noob question... Slot machine, Taz, and 540... All pretty close to the same thing ? Are the Taz and the Slot just horizontal 540s in different directions ? I have never seen any of these tricks done in person, and it took a couple of years to learn the 540 from videos. Thanks to Randy, Martin & Reggie, I finally got it.

~Rob.
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2009, 05:30 AM »

OK, stupid noob question... Slot machine, Taz, and 540... All pretty close to the same thing ? Are the Taz and the Slot just horizontal 540s in different directions ? I have never seen any of these tricks done in person, and it took a couple of years to learn the 540 from videos. Thanks to Randy, Martin & Reggie, I finally got it.

~Rob.

They are all 540 spins started from an uneven flare, initiated from different orientations of flight (and therefore, different inputs to get the uneven flare)...for sure. 

This realization helped me to really perfect the slot and taz.  You need the same kite position for both, and they both start with the same orientation in flight (horizontal), but the slot spins from the upper wing...and the taz the bottom wing. 

From horizontal flight, getting to an uneven flare is easy for the slot (almost too easy, so poor slots don't look anything like a 540 spin but still often 'go around'), and comparably difficult for the taz...but the uneven flare is essentially the same position for both (albeit relative to different wings).   

obi
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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 05:37 AM »

A Taz is a 540 rotation. A slot is a 360 rotation.  Wink

Denny
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RobB
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 07:09 AM »

Thanks, guys. This stuff is hard for me to tell from video. I often find it difficult to tell which way the kite is facing in video, let alone when I'm flying. Just a mental disconnect caused by dyslexia (sp?) I think...

~Rob.
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John Welden
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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 08:00 AM »

I know I've posted this vid a million times, but I feel like it helps to show these sorts of flat spin tricks slow enough to where you can get a better idea of what the kite needs to do. Maybe some new people would like to see it.

A Vapor Video by John Welden


If you practice in light winds you can focus on the mechanics and not have to pop and pray that everything goes well. A normal quick 540 happens so fast, it's hard to understand what's going on.

If you're practicing these tricks and failing a lot, move on to something else and come back to it.  You don't want to train your muscles to do it wrong.

Key to flat spins is nose away control.  You can spin the kite around until the lines bind up if you can keep the nose from getting out of control.  In the video, I do reversing flat spins by controlling the kite when it's nose away. If I had let the nose flair up too much the kite would be out of control. Any time the kite is nose away and under control, a flat spin can be started.  Doesn't matter how you get there.

The key to nose away control is to always be in a down wind glide.  It's just like a plane coming in for a landing, if you go too slow or pitch up too much, you'll fall out of the sky. Through all my flat spins the kite is moving down wind. It's moving very slow, but still moving down wind.  For a nice flat 540 in higher winds, you should end up down wind quite a bit.

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Steve
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2009, 08:21 AM »

I thought we were talking vertical slots.  Vertical slots are 540 degree rotation (or at least close to that).  Kite dependent, but if done correctly a vertical slot looks a whole lot like a 540.
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WinterDaze
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2009, 09:08 AM »

Thanks, guys. This stuff is hard for me to tell from video. I often find it difficult to tell which way the kite is facing in video, let alone when I'm flying. Just a mental disconnect caused by dyslexia (sp?) I think...

~Rob.

I'm glad I'm not the only one Wink on all counts.
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WinterDaze AoF
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 09:45 AM »

Hey JohnW,

Another Vapor vid on the same page ! I have to get one of those !

Thanks for posting the video, I have seen it, but never really concentrated on the individual tricks, just enjoyed the flying. Let me ask... around 1:20 in the video, I always thought that was called a Pinwheel. Is that the case ? Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ? I'm starting to feel alot more enlightened if all these tricks are related...

~Rob.


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RonG
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 10:31 AM »

Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ?
A pinwheel is like a multiple axel - or more accurately a continuous axel - spiraling down from the top of the window.  Pretty trick, and a nice way to gain ground in light wind.
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chilese
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2009, 11:57 AM »

The Vapor was designed for John Welden. The rest of us merely dabble at it.  Huh

He's pretty sweet with the Elixir too. 2002 Hot Tricks champ.

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John Welden
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2009, 01:00 PM »

Hey JohnW,

Another Vapor vid on the same page ! I have to get one of those !

Thanks for posting the video, I have seen it, but never really concentrated on the individual tricks, just enjoyed the flying. Let me ask... around 1:20 in the video, I always thought that was called a Pinwheel. Is that the case ? Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ? I'm starting to feel alot more enlightened if all these tricks are related...

~Rob.




Glad you like the video, thanks.

Like any trick, these things all seem to have about 30 different names.  In my world a pin wheel is started over head and the kite pretty much spirals down on its own.  If you're cool you catch it in your hands. The trick works best indoors or in almost zero wind and on short lines. 

In my vid, I like to think of those as multiple flat spins.  I define that as being in control of the kite 100% of the time.  At no time are both lines totally slack. 

A good way to learn multiple flatspins/axels is to start by practicing pinwheels.  Slowly advance from zero control, slack lines, to total control.  Play around and see what you can do to keep the kite going. It took me a long time, but that's how I learned. 

Use a pitch stable kite, it's a lot easier.  The Ozone is a great kite to learn on and is actually easier than the vapor to control in my opinion.   Also practice down wind glides until you can't stand it anymore. You must master that if you want to nail these sorts of tricks. 

Fun stuff if you really get into it.
JW
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