GWTW Forum
September 18, 2018, 10:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Issues? Questions?
email gwtwforum@kitekids.net
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lifter  (Read 6214 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39 PM »

1200 lbs! Really? How much pull does your largest kite actually have? My sense is such line strength is more about braggadocio and status than any practical concerns.  Huh
Really more of a safety thing. When flying a larger kite and/or something with large line laundry, I'd rather have over kill on the line and anchor. Also, line is seldom what it's rated at. I had a friend test a lot of line. The cheaper line was _way_ over-rated. More expensive line (such as what Gomberg sells) was closer to it's actual rating. Lastly, line over time can become nicked or break down from use and UV (the line being discussed here is more UV resistant). So it's going to loose a little there as well.

Overkill is overrated.  Wink As far as damaged line, any is subject to wear and it seems to me it's cheaper to replace lighter line than heavier.

Have you ever measured the pull on your kites? Know any sources that provide such measures? I have been flying kites 50+ years and I'm just highly skeptical of recommendations made in the absence of actual data.
Logged
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 02:42 PM »

Itís a bigíun.



Nice kite! So if the pull is in hundreds of pounds, how is it the person is hand launching it? You see my problem?
Logged
tcope
Trade Count: (+5)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 638


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 03:36 PM »

Well, you could get some idea based on how big a sand anchor will hold it. A cubic foot of dry sand weighs roughly 100 lbs. (Volume to Weight conversion)

If you get the opportunity, get some actual measures of different kite pulls and report back. I suspect the pull of many kites is far below the line strength that 'common knowledge' seems to be recommending.
If you were lifting it straight up, that would be correct. However, there are other factors that come into play. Even if the sand anchor were laying on top of the sand, you'd need to factor in the resistance from dragging it on the sand. However, when you use a sand anchor you dig a hole that is straight up and down on the kite side. This means that the anchor is being pulled right into that wall of sand. So the "weight" is effectively a lot more sand then is just on the anchor. That is, if the person is using the anchor correctly.
Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
https://www.youtube.com/user/UtahKiteFlier
tcope
Trade Count: (+5)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 638


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 03:46 PM »

Overkill is overrated.  Wink As far as damaged line, any is subject to wear and it seems to me it's cheaper to replace lighter line than heavier.

Have you ever measured the pull on your kites? Know any sources that provide such measures? I have been flying kites 50+ years and I'm just highly skeptical of recommendations made in the absence of actual data.

You don't always know about the wear (UV, fraying) all of the time. I do inspect lines every so often but it can be difficult to see everything. What about, better to have a 750lbs line rather then replacing a 500lbs line more often?

Barry Ogletree in TX did a lot of testing on kite lines and the pull from kites. It's a little difficult to get into specifics on the pull from a kite as there are thousands of different kites and a wide range of wind. General information can be given and that can still be very useful. I'd say bottom line (ha) is that kites don't pull as much as we think. See my post above, the line recommendation was 1000lbs and I said 500-750lbs should be fine. I've used 500lbs line on a 36 Sled in 30mph winds. I had no idea why that line did not break but it did not. That was the most pull I've every felt on a line. I've also had a 240 flow form up in 25mph winds where it was pulling so hard it was pulling to the side and it took 2 people to get it down. I mean, I'm 180lbs and I could not even use my weight to pull the line down. I think I had 1200lbs on that kite. I expected it to break but it did not (the 36 sled really should have broken that 500lbs line, the 1200lbs, could have gone either way).

So.... line rating claimed is almost always more then the line will really take and kites don't pull as hard as we think they do. I do tend to recommend line that is on the light side. However, when it comes to larger kites, I usually recommend something higher because of the safety issue if that kite/laundry got loose.
Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
https://www.youtube.com/user/UtahKiteFlier
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 04:23 PM »

Overkill is overrated.  Wink As far as damaged line, any is subject to wear and it seems to me it's cheaper to replace lighter line than heavier.

Have you ever measured the pull on your kites? Know any sources that provide such measures? I have been flying kites 50+ years and I'm just highly skeptical of recommendations made in the absence of actual data.


You don't always know about the wear (UV, fraying) all of the time. I do inspect lines every so often but it can be difficult to see everything. What about, better to have a 750lbs line rather then replacing a 500lbs line more often?

Barry Ogletree in TX did a lot of testing on kite lines and the pull from kites. It's a little difficult to get into specifics on the pull from a kite as there are thousands of different kites and a wide range of wind. General information can be given and that can still be very useful. I'd say bottom line (ha) is that kites don't pull as much as we think. See my post above, the line recommendation was 1000lbs and I said 500-750lbs should be fine. I've used 500lbs line on a 36 Sled in 30mph winds. I had no idea why that line did not break but it did not. That was the most pull I've every felt on a line. I've also had a 240 flow form up in 25mph winds where it was pulling so hard it was pulling to the side and it took 2 people to get it down. I mean, I'm 180lbs and I could not even use my weight to pull the line down. I think I had 1200lbs on that kite. I expected it to break but it did not (the 36 sled really should have broken that 500lbs line, the 1200lbs, could have gone either way).

So.... line rating claimed is almost always more then the line will really take and kites don't pull as hard as we think they do. I do tend to recommend line that is on the light side. However, when it comes to larger kites, I usually recommend something higher because of the safety issue if that kite/laundry got loose.


Good stuff! Is there a page with Ogletree's results?

So on taking two guys to pull down that kite. Suppose you both weighed 180, then we have 360lbs to pull it down so the kite pull was less, we'll say 350lbs of pull. Line strength is primarily lessened due to knots and let's suppose your knots reduce strength by 50% then 750lb line should suffice.

As to safety of loose laundry, I think the danger would vary depending on where the break occurred. What danger exactly are you thinking of?

I agree line may be underrated and that pull is overestimated. I guess my problem is that much of the advice seems to be based on suppositions and not on facts and tends to overly heavy line. While the manufacturers suggest line specs, they use vulgar terms such as 'powerful lifter' rather than giving actual data from the kite. For the OP's Skyform 360, Into The Wind is recommending 500lb Dacron line. Skyform Lifter 60 Foil Kite

PS Reading a page on knot & line strength, the author says line strength labels are underestimated & not overestimated. Go figure.  Huh
Knot Strength Isn't All About Line Strength
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 04:33 PM by Roger » Logged
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 04:26 PM »

Well, you could get some idea based on how big a sand anchor will hold it. A cubic foot of dry sand weighs roughly 100 lbs. (Volume to Weight conversion)

If you get the opportunity, get some actual measures of different kite pulls and report back. I suspect the pull of many kites is far below the line strength that 'common knowledge' seems to be recommending.
If you were lifting it straight up, that would be correct. However, there are other factors that come into play. Even if the sand anchor were laying on top of the sand, you'd need to factor in the resistance from dragging it on the sand. However, when you use a sand anchor you dig a hole that is straight up and down on the kite side. This means that the anchor is being pulled right into that wall of sand. So the "weight" is effectively a lot more sand then is just on the anchor. That is, if the person is using the anchor correctly.

Right. So with the kite anchored one could use another sand bag hung on the line above the anchor and progressively add sand until the bag touches the ground. Then, measure the volume of sand and estimate the weight and you have a close estimate of the pull. Smiley
Logged
thief
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+30)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5399


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 05:05 PM »

Personally, for bigger kites I always upgraded the line. That provided me with a thicker diameter line which was easier on the hands.

I was never a fan for using metal pieces for line management like others, too much worry about a break somewhere and a chunk of metal flying.
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 05:27 PM »

Personally, for bigger kites I always upgraded the line. That provided me with a thicker diameter line which was easier on the hands.

I was never a fan for using metal pieces for line management like others, too much worry about a break somewhere and a chunk of metal flying.

Gloves? Wink Thicker diameter means greater drag and, depending on the type of line, more weight. Both antithetical to performance. In checking on at least one reference given for a particular line here, 'they' said the stronger line was thinner than comparable Dacron test. (I can't find it just now; please give me a push.)

What metal are you thinking of? Safety glasses are never a bad idea regardless of the size of a kite. (Said the one-eyed man. Sad )
Logged
tcope
Trade Count: (+5)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 638


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 06:18 PM »

Good stuff! Is there a page with Ogletree's results?
Not any longer. It was on a forum that he ran, KiteArea51. it was a wealth of information on SLK's but he's since taken it down.

So on taking two guys to pull down that kite. Suppose you both weighed 180, then we have 360lbs to pull it down so the kite pull was less, we'll say 350lbs of pull. Line strength is primarily lessened due to knots and let's suppose your knots reduce strength by 50% then 750lb line should suffice.
No. The amount of pull of the kite follows the kite line. So if you were to grab the line and pull it along the same direction as the line, it would be equal to the pull of the kite. When pulling the line down, at a 45-90 degree angle, the pull is lessened. Also, the further you are away from the kite, the more it acts as a fulcrum.

As to safety of loose laundry, I think the danger would vary depending on where the break occurred. What danger exactly are you thinking of?
A 450 Sutton with 160 ribbon tail. The broken line from the kite wraps around who knows what and the kite is wiping from side to side. It hits and knocks over and older person or a child. Hooks a light post and brakes the glass fixture. Tons of things could go wrong. I also don't want to be the person who leads to someone hating kite fliers.

Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
https://www.youtube.com/user/UtahKiteFlier
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+28)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1958


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 06:34 PM »

I had a talk with Gomberg about line when I got my sled from him.  First thing he said was don't worry about drag when it comes to SLK's, the weight of the line is more important. Second thing He said was the pull of a kite is not at its strongest when the kite is at its zenith but during lift off and that's where you will get most of your line breaks happening.  HE also asked me what type of line laundry I was planning on using and I ended up getting both 500# and 750# ti use for different laundry.  The larger socks and bowls I use the 750, banners and smaller spinners I use the 500.  I have his 10' mega sled and it will fly on 250# no problem but add a 4 foot bowl to the line and it will break.

Lifters by good manufacturers will tend to be over rated on the line not because its what the lifter needs but what will work well on the lifter and a bit of laundry.  I found with most that the range its pretty good.  The minimum is usually what the kite itself will need and the max is kite plus laundry. On my sled the range on the kite is 250-500#.  Dave recommended 500-750#to handle the full range of laundry I plan to use.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 06:39 PM by Ca Ike » Logged
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 06:43 PM »

Good stuff! Is there a page with Ogletree's results?
Not any longer. It was on a forum that he ran, KiteArea51. it was a wealth of information on SLK's but he's since taken it down.

So on taking two guys to pull down that kite. Suppose you both weighed 180, then we have 360lbs to pull it down so the kite pull was less, we'll say 350lbs of pull. Line strength is primarily lessened due to knots and let's suppose your knots reduce strength by 50% then 750lb line should suffice.
No. The amount of pull of the kite follows the kite line. So if you were to grab the line and pull it along the same direction as the line, it would be equal to the pull of the kite. When pulling the line down, at a 45-90 degree angle, the pull is lessened. Also, the further you are away from the kite, the more it acts as a fulcrum.

As to safety of loose laundry, I think the danger would vary depending on where the break occurred. What danger exactly are you thinking of?
A 450 Sutton with 160 ribbon tail. The broken line from the kite wraps around who knows what and the kite is wiping from side to side. It hits and knocks over and older person or a child. Hooks a light post and brakes the glass fixture. Tons of things could go wrong. I also don't want to be the person who leads to someone hating kite fliers.

Acknowledged Ogletree data gone.

Acknowledge my mistaken example for determining pull. D'oh!  More reason to get and use an inexpensive 'fish' scale. Or, we all can just continue to guess and suppose and let the chips fall where they may.

I can't fault your danger example other than to say one might consider the danger they are presenting to others in specific circumstances and consider not flying if it is likely to endanger others and or their property.

As to causing folks to dislike kiting or kiters I think comments and conduct such as Charles' "my one of a kind kites wonít be cut out of the sky by someone flying their Disney Princess kite" go a long way in accomplishing that. How dare novices, especially children, crap up experts' fun.  Roll Eyes

Speaking of safety, how many of you are aware of and/or abide by FAA regulations on kite flying?
PART 101óMOORED BALLOONS, KITES, AMATEUR ROCKETS, UNMANNED FREE BALLOONS, AND CERTAIN MODEL AIRCRAFT
Logged
OCPablo
Trade Count: (+13)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 259


Location: South OC, CA

« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 08:21 PM »

Well, I have a HQ 7.0 parafoil that I fly 3 11' squids off of.  Looking to add a 30-50' windsock as well.  I come from the "more horsepower" point of view, so if I can fly what I want, when I want and not have to worry about line failure... so be it. 

« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 08:27 PM by OCPablo » Logged

SoCal Smoooth Winds... Arriving Daily.

SoCal Kite Quiver 2.0: https://goo.gl/photos/JsGxgqswN8GtbAox9
Charles G
Trade Count: (+29)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


Location: San Marcos, CA

« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 08:23 PM »

Iíve had my lines cut two times at our local field. Both times, the kites ended up on the freeway. Thankfully neither one caused an accident. If my lines are cut, the kite could end up on the freeway again, a smaller kite will likely land on the field. I may not have chosen my words wisely, but itís not just about someone crapping up my fun.
Logged

Lee S
Trade Count: (+4)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 376

Location:

« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2017, 10:06 PM »

Hey Charles,

I'd just like to add, if twice you've had kites wind up on a freeway, maybe you'd consider flying at a lower altitude, further from a major highway, or both. If you think junior's soccer mom would vent anger all over your day, imagine the wrath of the local police should you cause an accident.  Shocked Shocked  Safety is everything. Safety is the only thing.
Logged
Roger
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


Location: SW Washington State

« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 10:07 PM »

Well, I have a HQ 7.0 parafoil that I fly 3 11' squids off of.  Looking to add a 30-50' windsock as well.  I come from the "more horsepower" point of view, so if I can fly what I want, when I want and not have to worry about line failure... so be it.  

The 'more horsepower' and me, me, me, is a good part of what gets my goat. If folks want to spend their money that way it's fine, but that is the vanity aspect of kiting and nothing to do with the actual science and mechanics, let alone the fun for flyers not in your elite class.
I'íve had my lines cut two times at our local field. Both times, the kites ended up on the freeway. Thankfully neither one caused an accident. If my lines are cut, the kite could end up on the freeway again, a smaller kite will likely land on the field. I may not have chosen my words wisely, but it'ís not just about someone crapping up my fun.

Maybe you shouldn't fly any more there under the conditions extant when your lines were cut. If your line -whatever the rating- were to break or come loose without someone else causing it, could the kite end up in the freeway? FAA rules say:
"ß101.7   Hazardous operations.

(a) No person may operate any moored balloon, kite, amateur rocket, or unmanned free balloon in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons, or their property."

Other fliers or no, it is you creating the hazard in the first place.

Honestly folks, nothing sucks the fun out of kiting, or any sort of fun-for-everyone activity, like posturing and attitudes of superiority. In over 50 years of kite flying I can honestly say my worst experiences have been with 'experts' and 'professionals' and my best either alone or with 'amateurs'.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Support the GWTW Forum

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

FMKS
Fly Market

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Blue Moon
Blue Moon Kites

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at top)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!