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Author Topic: Flying lines  (Read 4972 times)
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Norm Pulliam
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 10:45 AM »

We carry Shanti Warp Speed, Skybond and LPG.
A Wind of Change (advertiser/supporter) of this forum carries LPG bulk in 50#, 90#, 150#, 200#, 300#, and 500#. I don't know what else a guy would need. If you fly kites, you should probably learn how to make line-sets. It cost much less and you can make them any length you want. I'm sure somebody in here would explain how to make them and if you searched on You Tube you could probably find a video explaining how to make them. I guess the downside would be you don't get a line winder or a set of wonderful Wrist Straps.
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Gamelord
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 07:22 PM »

We can also make custom length linesets as well.  Let us know what you want and we can get it for you.
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socalman320
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 07:36 PM »

We carry Shanti Warp Speed, Skybond and LPG.
A Wind of Change (advertiser/supporter) of this forum carries LPG bulk in 50#, 90#, 150#, 200#, 300#, and 500#. I don't know what else a guy would need. If you fly kites, you should probably learn how to make line-sets. It cost much less and you can make them any length you want. I'm sure somebody in here would explain how to make them and if you searched on You Tube you could probably find a video explaining how to make them. I guess the downside would be you don't get a line winder or a set of wonderful Wrist Straps.

I understand. I've looked at a couple of videos on YouTube. Seems pretty simple I suppose.

Mixed opinions on the ease of making up linesets. I think my confusion comes when I start seeing the sleeving part. Some say just cut line, tie knot and done. Others say sleeve it.

I'm not arguing. I just want to be well informed before I decide if I'm going the spool route or not AND if I really need a spool since flying times are far and few between as of late.

All these years (pretty much since 2000) I've never had to replace ANY of my lines.
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makatakam
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2018, 01:31 PM »


[/quote]
All these years (pretty much since 2000) I've never had to replace ANY of my lines.
[/quote]

This means you don't fly enough. If you're not replacing lines annually or bi-annually the savings of making your own will only amount to about $5/year over 10 years' time. In your case I would recommend buying pre-made lines from your favorite kite shop. Less hassle and more time for flying. Shops that make custom linesets may charge less for unsleeved or only sleeved at one end. Ask. Sleeving makes it a bit easier to grasp the loops, undo knots, and prevent wear. If you're not wearing out lines you may not need sleeving, and definitely don't need it at the kite end of the lines. You can use knots in the end of the loop or extensions to make knots easier to loosen.

Of course, this is only my opinion. In the end, your preference is what counts. Whatever you feel comfortable with or get used to is what will work best for you.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 01:33 PM by makatakam » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2018, 01:25 AM »

Making your own line sets is easy, the only 'tool' you need is a sleeving tool - basically 12" of stiff bent wire to pull the lines through the sleeving then just make sure your lines are the same length. I usually make the loops on one end and put them on a hook on the garage door and walk them down the drive to the desired length.

The only downside of not sleeveing is that you will almost certainly have to adjust new lines after a few flights as they will stretch - with sleeving this isn't too difficult but without the knots can be very hard to untie and it's very easy to damage the line - might be easier to just cut the loops off and retie once the lines have stretched.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2018, 10:32 AM »


The only downside of not sleeveing is that you will almost certainly have to adjust new lines after a few flights as they will stretch - with sleeving this isn't too difficult but without the knots can be very hard to untie and it's very easy to damage the line - might be easier to just cut the loops off and retie once the lines have stretched.

Here's where a lot of the sleeving vs non sleeving debate lands: Adjusting lines that change length over time.

In my experience (maybe 50 line sets over 20 years), a properly made line set will not change over time.

The two things that cause line sets to change length are knots slipping and line stretch. Both of these are common with commercially made line sets (worse with mass produced "cheap" lines), and this is what often leads people to believe that ALL line sets change over time.

Sleeving itself can be a contributor to knot slippage. If the line inside the sleeve isn't properly captured, it will move (spectra is slippery) and the sleeving will bunch up. Often knots in sleeving are tied improperly (I've seen commercial line sets with loose knots, or the wrong knots). Proper knots in sleeved or unsleeved loops will not slip.

Line stretch should be totally accounted for when making line sets. High quality spectra can be stretched when making line sets to the point where it will not stretch any further in flight. No reason not to do this, and its easy when making your own sets, but would add a lot of time (and expense) when making commercial sets, so it is skipped.

For me, sleeving is an unnecessary hassle.

The main component in making good line sets is a heavy hook screwed into a fence post (or telephone pole). A heavier version of the one pictured below.

Start with a spool of line. Make a proper permanent loop (I use double figure 8 knots) put it over the hook and walk the spool back to the proper length. Cut the line. Walk back to the hook, make another loop, walk back, cut the line. Now you've got two lines with completed loops in one end. The loops don't even have the be the same exact size, as the equalization comes later in the second set of loops.

Wrap one loose end several times around something strong (like a screwdriver), hold it with my thumb and pull the line tight. Pull really, really hard, then relax. Do this many times. Pulling tight and releasing, you'll notice that the line gets a bit less stretchy. Good line will feel pretty "hard" after several stretches. The first few pulls will be noticeably different than subsequent ones. Junky line tends to be more "stretchy" or springy feeling, no matter what you do.

If you do this stretching right, pulling against an immoveable object, you'll stretch the lines much more than they ever will in flight, and you've totally set the loops at one end.

Making the second loops with the two line sets exactly the same length is also easy if you know how, and verifying the equal length before setting the last knots is also a neat trick. I can go on if anyone is interested.




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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 02:39 PM »

Go on  Smiley.
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2018, 03:37 PM »

I just received two new linesets and I'm a bit puzzled because the packaging says "Spectra Flying Lines" BUT inside the packaging is a "Dyneema" sticker right on the winder.

Which is it??? I know they're not the same.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 06:05 PM by socalman320 » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2018, 03:41 PM »

Allen! Wow!

I think THAT response should go up in the sticky section and locked for reference material!

Good job and thanks.
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Norm Pulliam
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 05:35 PM »

The only downside of not sleeveing is that you will almost certainly have to adjust new lines after a few flights as they will stretch - with sleeving this isn't too difficult but without the knots can be very hard to untie and it's very easy to damage the line - might be easier to just cut the loops off and retie once the lines have stretched.
For ME, this stands true, so therefore I sleeve my lines. I also stretch my lines before making my line sets. I use a Figure Eight on a Bight Knot to make my end loops. I am not  ambidextrous, so after a few hundred Jacob Ladders and Barrel Rolls using mostly my right hand I find the right line will still creep. I know how important it is to have equal lines when doing tricks,  especially with Flic Flacs. There is another alternative to sleeving and thatís making pig-tail loops out of Bridle line to tie onto both ends of your lines. I remember a guy on here that was so particular about making his lines last a lifetime, he would periodically switch them end for end.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 05:36 PM »

I just received two new linesets and I'm a bit puzzled because they packaging says "Spectra Flying Lines" BUT inside the packaging is a "Dyneema" sticker right on the winder.

Which is it??? I know they're not the same.

Virtually the same. Spectra and Dyneema are the US and Euro trade names for very similar products made of Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene.

Both refer to the fiber itself that the lines are braided from. How the lines are braided and what types of coatings and such depend on the company that makes the lines. So all "Spectra" is not equal.

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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2018, 06:05 PM »

Hmmm......
Then why the substantial price difference? Almost half the price!
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2018, 06:16 PM »

All this just goes to show that it's largely a matter of preference, and in the great scheme of things, doesn't really matter much. Sleeving has it's benefits and it's hassles.



 I am not  ambidextrous, so after a few hundred Jacob Ladders and Barrel Rolls using mostly my right hand I find the right line will still creep.

 I remember a guy on here that was so particular about making his lines last a lifetime, he would periodically switch them end for end.


Two good points.

I'm extremely right handed too but stopped having right and left lines about the time I stopped sleeving (no color coding on the kite end), so I don't experience uneven wear for that reason. Still seems odd that properly knotted loops would creep, but I tend to chalk that up to the sleeving/spectra combo just not being really solid. I haven had any non-sleeved loops creep ever.

Second point, about swapping end for end is really good advice. The kite end and flyer end have different wear patterns. Where the lines wrap, where they interact with the kite and ground and the loops themselves from attaching and removing.

One thing for sure, I don't trust commercially made sets until I've hooked 'em to the fence post, made sure they are equal length, then stretched them well (which also sets the knots which I may have added too or re-tied in the equalizing process)

One thing I will say for sleeved loops, I have found them very easy to equalize small differences in line length. Just add a knot or two to a loop on the longer line. You can eat up 1/4" difference easy at each end. No untying and retying and all that. Of course one thing that always drove me nuts was really short loops in pre-made lines, which tends to preclude this.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 06:24 PM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2018, 06:22 PM »

Hmmm......
Then why the substantial price difference? Almost half the price!

You're paying for how the line was made, not the material it was made out of. There are cheap Spectra lines and cheap Dyneema lines. Because the term "dyneema" is used globally vs. Spectra being more North American, it's likely there are more companies offshore making cheap dyneema kite line. Does not mean it is equivalent to high end Dyneeema or Spectra kite lines.

Keep in mind, zillions of yards of thin spectra and dyneema line is made for use in fishing and other industries. There are lines marketed for kite flying that are just re-packaged fishing line. Cheap. Purpose made kite line like Shanti is more expensive for a reason.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2018, 06:46 PM »

I, as well, swap ends every so often and started doing this after I got a couple of the blue and red Prism line sets. I really noticed the wear pattern(s) because of the "coloured" line so after a while I switched ends. Never had one break at the old wear area......
I also do this after every quad session....not ends but top and bottom. When winding up I make sure the top lines will be used as the bottom (brake) lines for the next session and vice versa.
Dunno if this gets a whole lot more mileage out of the lines but I'd like to think so.
I'm not super fussy re wear and tear and go by the sound of the lines when wrapping....that's when I know their lifespan is ending or to cut them down.
bt
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