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Author Topic: What defines a trick?  (Read 4642 times)
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fworley
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 12:49 PM »


I thought Dave defines a trick.

-Frazer
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JimB
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2009, 01:20 PM »

Thanks Be To Dave!  Grin
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obijuankenobe
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 01:28 PM »

I have to come down on the side of Denny here.  Semantically, I think a 'vertical slot machine' is a very long funny name for a 540.  I don't know about anyone else here, but if that's a 'vertical slot', then I want to know, 'What the hell is a 540?'  

I think the better way to break this down is that they are ideally all (slot, taz, 540) flat belly rotations.  So then the only way to differentiate between them is how they are started/entered/exited.  Horizontally, you get a slot or a taz.  Vertically...a 540.

obi
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2009, 01:52 PM »

Quote
I disagree. A slot doesn't start nose away and doesn't rotate 540 degrees.
Vertical slots do.
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2009, 01:59 PM »

Quote
I disagree. A slot doesn't start nose away and doesn't rotate 540 degrees.
Vertical slots do.

And I said according to the Tricky Wiki you were right.  Wink
I still don't agree with it being called a vertical slot though. What you and the Tricky Wiki are describing is a 540 IMO. A slot only rotates 360 degrees.  Grin

Denny
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2009, 02:15 PM »

The popularity of tricks is interesting.  I have been flying for about 10 years or so.  When I started I was taught that the slot was vertical ... oh, and you can do them horizontally if you want.  I got real good at the verticals and so-so at the horizontals but seldom, if ever saw anyone do them ... at least in online videos or with the bay area guys I flew with.  Then I noticed a couple years ago the slot became "must add to repertoire" for trick fliers.  The vertical slot that is.  My recollection is that Debray did them in a video and suddenly this "new" trick was all the rage.

Well ... at least that is the way I remember it.  Still hoping that the pinwheel comes back as the latest "new" trick and I can once more be a relevant trick flier  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2009, 02:30 PM »

Will someone who apparently knows the difference please try to explain how the 'vertical slot machine' and the '540' differ?  Maybe a vid?  Cheesy

Personally, I have to again agree with Denny.  The 'modern' slot is a 360.  Horizontal, initiate, spin, exit in same direction.  You can't exit in the same direction and get 540 degrees, unless your circles don't have the same number of degrees around as mine. 

Don't know about the 'older' version of this trick. 

obi
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2009, 02:38 PM »

Well ... at least that is the way I remember it.  Still hoping that the pinwheel comes back as the latest "new" trick and I can once more be a relevant trick flier  Wink

Which still makes no sense to me.  Cheesy

If you can over-rotate a pancake so that the nose is pointing back at you and pull a line you can do a wapdoowap.

If you can roll a kite up and drop it on its back and pull a line then roll out you can do a Lewis.

If you can fly towards the ground snap lazy to a landing you can do a Kombo.

A lot of the "new" stuff is not really that hard.

It's some of the more intricate combinations that can be mind boggling.

The basic tricks are just that: basic.

You need to get past the psychological block that is keeping you from throwing some of this stuff in the mix now and then.

It's not that hard.
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2009, 02:46 PM »

A 540 is a 180 degree flare turn followed by a 360 with the initiating pop for the 360 given just after the kite has begun the rotation for the 180 flare turn. The momentum for the 180 is provided by the set up and the 360 is initiated with a pop. If you don't pop you still get the 180.

So, imagine you are flying down towards the ground at a slight angle.

You do the flare turn by giving slack to the lower wing and the kite starts to steer around because you still have tension on the upper wing.

At the point where the kite is starting the rotation for the 180, with the kite flared away, you give a firm pop and a lot of slack on what was the upper wing. It is probably better identified as the nearer wing now as the kite should be flat or pretty close.

If you have timed it right, the kite will complete both rotations, the 180 and the 360, and come around ready to fly back up when you tension both lines and step back.

A vertical slot was a 540 degree spin initiated by flying down at an angle, pulling on the upper wing to flatten and start the kite turning back, toward the pilot, and then hitting the same wing again for a 360. The first input can actually drive the kite in the other direction sometimes before it backs around in the rotation. There can be a certain amount of movement from the initial input that can add, or subtract, some number of degrees to or from the overall rotation, but I think that you are correct in thinking that a slot is, more or less a 360 nowadays.

At one time though that initial rotation was pretty close to a 180.

The semantic difference would be which wing, or wings, you are giving the inputs to and whether or not you are getting that initial 180 rotation.

Which points up another difference. If you are getting that rotation, then it is a backward initiated rotation, in the slot, whereas with the 540 that initial 180 is driving forward. Essentially you are forcing the slot, You can't force the 540. You set it up and let it go. If you did it right it goes.. if not.. not.

The 540 is a momentum-based trick - a flare turn as the beginning with an input that adds to the initial momentum to complete the trick.

The slot is a double input flatspin much less dependent on inertia.

My favorite slots are the really jagged ones where the kite is forced in the "wrong" direction by the first input and then shoots back in the "right" direction upon the second input often jumping up in the air as it rotates.

my only complaint would be when pilots pop a 360 and call it a 540 which can be seen from time to time.

Will someone who apparently knows the difference please try to explain how the 'vertical slot machine' and the '540' differ?  Maybe a vid?  Cheesy

Personally, I have to again agree with Denny.  The 'modern' slot is a 360.  Horizontal, initiate, spin, exit in same direction.  You can't exit in the same direction and get 540 degrees, unless your circles don't have the same number of degrees around as mine. 

Don't know about the 'older' version of this trick. 

obi
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:56 PM by JimB » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2009, 02:48 PM »

Will someone who apparently knows the difference please try to explain how the 'vertical slot machine' and the '540' differ?  Maybe a vid?  Cheesy

Personally, I have to again agree with Denny.  The 'modern' slot is a 360.  Horizontal, initiate, spin, exit in same direction.  You can't exit in the same direction and get 540 degrees, unless your circles don't have the same number of degrees around as mine. 

Don't know about the 'older' version of this trick. 

obi

As they say a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, sorry Obi.
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 10:50 PM »

What trick did I just do?

Double Axel.

Oh yes you did !!!

I started doing a move I called the "Axel" in the 92' season.  This move consisted of, in light wind, moving toward the kite while the kite is flying downward, thus "flattening out" the kite.  While in this flattened position, carefully popping the left or right line to make the kite spin around while in this position.  I later learned to do a "double axel" with this technique--which consisted of the kite spinning around 540 degrees.

Mike.
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 10:57 PM »

Well I'll beat Zippy to it, from Pete Peters, the original definitive description of tricks

Quote
Horizontal slot/Vertical slot/Angle slot/Slot machines

Very versatile trick, easy to do, (after learning) and can be done in different parts of the window with different effects.

Horizontal Slot - Fly across the window, execute a Half Axel  move with your inside hand (up wing) As soon as the belly flattens out (that is before the Half Axel  move is completed!), pull your inside hand again sharply and push forward the outside hand causing the kite to spin a 540 Flat Spin. Do this at the edge close to the ground, the kite 540s back into the window for a landing.

Vertical Slot - fly nose down (with power) on the edge of the window and slightly point the nose to the outside. Execute Half Axel  movement with the inside hand and pull again when belly of kite flattens out. The kite will 540 Flat Spin.

Angle Slot - Fly the kite nose down at a 45-degree angle. Execute a Half Axel  with the up/inside hand and as soon as the kite belly is flat, pop that same hand again causing kite to float around in a 540 Flat Spin. This is the same as the vertical slot but can be done anywhere quickly.

540 Flat Spin

The 540 Flat Spin starts off with a vertical dive. Bring your arms behind you to prepare for a Dead Stop. Stop the kite by throwing both arms forward. This should flatten out the kite with the nose pointing away from you (Pancake position)… Some kites like a very fast Kill (Stranger, Box of Tricks) others prefer a slightly slower Kill (Phantom Elite, MEFM). The trick is to Kill the kite slightly unevenly. If you're going to "pop" it with your right hand, then let your left hand lead slightly when throwing your arms forward. This will Kill the kite with the nose pointing slightly to the left. After that a firm "pop" with the right hand immediately followed by lots of slack on both hands should initiate a Flat Spin. As long as you want the kite to spin you have to leave a lot of slack in your lines. Allow the kite to rotate one and a half times (540 degrees...). The last 1/4 turn is the tricky part. The kite can catch the wind and not want to turn up. You can help it along by a short gentle tug of the left hand. This extra tug takes a lot of practice to get right, but eventually will allow you to give it an extra revolution or two (and even reverse direction).

The next description was taken from 2 postings from rec.kites and must be the clearest one possible...

In case anyone's not sure, the 540 Flat Spin goes like this

The kite starts flying directly downwards towards the ground.
At some point before the kite hits the ground (and the lower you go the more impressive it is, but also more risky), you throw both arms forwards so that the kite flattens out, with the nose pointing away from you and the front of the kite now facing the ground.

A gentle tug (I tend to use the word "pop") on one line should start the kite rotating flat as if it was impaled on an imaginary pole sticking up from the ground.

After 540 degrees (1 and 1/2 rotations), the kite should still be flat facing the ground (or nearly flat) but with the nose now pointing towards you.

A gentle pull on both lines makes the kite sit up and fly off upwards.

As simple as that? Well actually, no. There are a few subtle things that you have to get right to perform the 540 Flat Spin and unless you know what you're looking for, they can be difficult to get right.



Note that then any slot was expected to do a 540 rotation, can anybody educate us on when that changed & why?

 


« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:18 PM by mikenchico » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 11:07 PM »

Once again, I think it has to do with where kite design is at the moment.

It is very easy to get a quick 360 by banging on the upper wing twice, a kind of short hand much like the half axel for the axle and the barrel roll for the backspin. In fact, the multiple input barrel roll we do these days is itself quite different from the smooth single input barrel roll of yore.

Rust never sleeps.

BTW, the slot descriptions you have posted are from DG's Flight School as part of an update to PP's site some Years ago.

I think Z8 had something to do with that event.

Steve and I had the Soylent Green Is People™ conversation vis a vis the 540 referencing the info posted by Z8 earlier in the day.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 12:31 AM by JimB » Logged
obijuankenobe
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« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2009, 01:15 AM »

Sorry, but this is all semantics.  I am not convinced at all.  I have posted video of me doing 540s in succession on my Cosmic (the Obi cribs vid).  You don't need to teach me the 540.  I need to read a definitiion of how the kite moves differently in a vertical slot, while still rotating 540 degrees.

Rather, I am convinced all this rigamorole over these two tricks stems from a time when there weren't so many tricks (or trick fliers), and people were very focused on defining what they personally could do or *invent*.  Those were the days   Roll Eyes

From the descriptions you all are posting, I don't read anything other than babble which subdivides that which doesn't need subdividing, all for the sake of making a longer list of tricks.  Nonsense.

SHOW ME THE MONEY:  I am offering 20USD at GWTW for anyone posting a video demonstrating the difference between a vertical slot and a 540 on the same kite.  Both tricks must of course enter and exit vertically (as described previously by others) after spinning 540 degrees.  Only rule:  Using two different sets of inputs to produce the same kite movement is NOT evidence of two independent tricks. 

How to win:  Post the video, labelling the tricks #1 and #2.  We'll have a local vote on which trick is which, and anything less than 80% consensus...I keep my money.  Convince the majority of the gallery, and you have 20USD with Steve to spend.

We all do half-axel differently.  Some push and pull on top to start it.  Others pull on the bottom then the top to start it.  Same kite movement, thus same trick. 

I wonder why RandyG doesn't have a video of the vertical slot machine. 

obi
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 01:20 AM by obijuankenobe » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2009, 04:57 AM »

It sounds like what use to be called a vertical slot in the old days is now called a 540. Kind of like the roto-fade and the back spin. Here's the TP definition of a 540:

 TP-USA Tricks Party Definition Group 3
The 540 is a single 540° belly-down rotation initiated from a Flare (belly down, nose away) that is entered from a vertical line of flight. The kite is flown straight down, flared, and rotated on its belly a full 540°, ending with the nose toward the pilot. The rotation should be as flat as possible, with no change in altitude. The trick is exited nose-up.
KEY ELEMENTS: ►Nose-down entry. ►Flat rotation. ►Nose-up exit.


Description
* The kite starts flying directly downwards towards the ground.
* At some point before the kite hits the ground (and the lower you go the more impressive it is, but also more risky), you throw both arms forwards so that the kite flattens out, with the nose pointing away from you and the front of the kite now facing the ground.
* A gentle tug (I tend to use the word "pop") on one line should start the kite rotating flat as if it was impaled on an imaginary pole sticking up from the ground.
* After 540 degrees (1 and 1/2 rotations), the kite should still be flat facing the ground (or nearly flat) but with the nose now pointing towards you.
* A gentle pull on both line makes the kite sit up and fly off upwards.

And modern day slot machines only rotate 360 degrees according to TP definitions.

 TP-USA Tricks Party Definition Group 3
The SLOT MACHINE is a single 360° belly-down rotation initiated from a flare (belly down, nose away) that is entered from a horizontal line of flight. From a horizontal position (nose pointing left or right), the kite is flared and then rotated on its belly a full 360°. If the kite is pointing left, the kite will rotate counterclockwise; if pointing right, it will rotate clockwise. The kite should exit the rotation in the same direction (left or right) of entry. Compare TAZ MACHINE.
KEY ELEMENTS: ►Horizontal entry and exit in same direction. ►Flat rotation.

I guess its just a matter of terminology. The quaint but antiquated terminology of early kiting has been replaced by a more up to date set of terms.

Denny
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