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Author Topic: Sleeving Spectra Linesets?  (Read 7099 times)
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Dano
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« on: March 24, 2009, 07:43 PM »

I know this topic has been beat to death many times..

But i'm sorry, I just feel my lines are better built when they're sleeved.
Even after i've just spent 2 evenings after work, cutting, sleeving, stretching, measuring, and then sleeving again on the other ends of the lines.

Rarely have my lines snapped in the middle of the line, but most often near the knot on an unsleeved line.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 07:46 PM by Dano » Logged
DWayne
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 07:49 PM »

I've tied them both ways. I prefer to use sleeves.

Denny
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ko
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 08:05 PM »

i used to sleeve both ends. now just the kite end for ease of hook up  if i break 1 i'll go back but no breaks so far also i now have enough strapsthat i dont have to swap around KO
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 09:10 AM by ko » Logged

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Dolphinboy
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 09:18 PM »

I always sleeve. It makes the lines easier to untie. If I break a line it's always in the middle where they're worn never at the ends.
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 09:53 PM »

I  sleeve both ends unless it's the kite end for the very lightest of breezes.  They are very easy to untie if you remember too put a little loop on the loop and use it for a little gripper.  Just pull and the larkshead come undone. Sad
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 10:14 PM »

I prefer sleeved also, I tried unsleeved on some 50 lb lines, they snapped right at the knot on the kite end in short order. I will admit there are probably better knots to use that don't stress the lines as much as the pair of double overhand knots I used.

So what is a good knot to use when buillding unsleeved lines?

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tpatter
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 10:30 PM »

My lines almost always break at the knot whether they are sleeved or not.

I've tried them both ways and prefer sleeving, but only for ease of handling the line.  It seems logical to me that sleeved would last longer, but I have not seen that to be the case with my lines. 

Oftentimes, I attach (handle-attachment style) unsleeved line onto a double-overhead loop of bridle line which functions as my sleeving.  I've yet to have one of these break and it serves to make the line easy to attach to the kite. 

YMMV, of course.  Our winds here are usually very light, so strength is perhaps not as much as concern.

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Allen Carter
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 11:51 PM »

I have a few good threads on this topic (and making linesets in general) waiting in the wings for the "Wisdom" area.

Until then, I'll add my 2 cents worth here.

I don't think it matters enough strength-wise to worry about sleeving.

In more than ten years at this, with the majority of hours on 75 or 90 pound unsleeved line, I've never broken a line at a knot. I've had lines break pretty much everywhere else.

The area where sleeving can certainly improve the durability of a line set is the loop itself. Attaching and removing the lines from the kite will show wear on the loops over time. In my case the rest of the lineset is generally pretty beat by the time the unsleeved loops start looking iffy.

I don't mind using sleeved lines, I just mind making them. Sleeving is a hassle. making lines without is easy. More on that in another thread

Below is a picture of how I attach lines on a lot of my kites. When I started out, a lot of local flyers did it this way. PBSK kites come with the bridle 'preconfigured". Basically just a second knot a half inch or so from the first one. Larkshead the unsleeved line over the second knot and you're good to go. Pull on the first knot to release. Slick.

If I didn't use that setup I'd "permanently" attach the unsleeved line to a loop of bridle line and larkshead that onto the tow point.

attachments older than 120 days removed to save space
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JeffD
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 02:37 AM »

After all the threads and personal experiance sleeved and not I don't think it matters one bit.

Poorly done sleeving can be a problem if it bunches but I doubt it comes that way anymore.  Sleeving your own with the cheap tool is very easy. Thin enough sleeve material is the key. Takes about one minute.

Peoples experiance with where line breaks is only anecdotal and random with breaks near the knot or near the middle with or without sleeving not predictable in any meaningful way.

Looking for patterns has more to do with being human than being right.

No one has ever shown enough experiance to predict where the line will break. If they could, they'd be more a kite line breaker than kite flyer.

A screwdriver or "official" kitestake to pull lines tight against, lighter to burn through lines and a marker to mark even point for first knot to hit when looped and its a few minutes work.

Pulling evenly on both lines and tightening so that there is no or equal bow in the line is fuly adaquate.

Make overhand knot on each line that hits your mark. Tighten carefully from both sides of knot till it bites and holds at your mark under slight pressure (or it can slide on the slippery line).

Make sure you leave enough extra for a few knots and the small endloop (3/4 inch or so). It only matters that its enough for you to easily grip.

(You could go burn off a few inches and mark a point to see how much
line is used per knot if you want to get an idea.)

Second overhand knot. when slowly tightened against first will bind both. There should be no further line creep or stretch from the knots.

If you want to be prepared to fix and keep sleeves keep sleeving tool in your bag and mark point where ends of untied sleeves should sit (when stretched out straight).

If you're not a neat freak the loops don't have to be the same size (just big enough for easy use) and overhand knots at end of loop towards the line can be used to equalize small amounts from line stretch or equalizing error.

Only overall length matters.

FWIW I've never had a loop break even if obviously frayed and never broken a line at a knot.

Besides being the same length, more or less within 1/2 inch, if you can get them on and off easy that's all that matters. 

Personal preference aside, the rest is angels and pinheads.
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CTaylor
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 06:08 AM »

I used to sleeve.  I've worn out enough linesets, that I do not sleeve them anymore.  My personal opinion is that the line will wear through somewhere in the middle before the knot degrades the lines.  It's time consuming to sleeve lines if you build your sets from bulk.  I typically fly a set of lines for about 2 to 3 seasons more depending on the amount of flight time and condition of the line.  They wear more quickly if laid in sand often.  They get retired to kite building purposes when I can't get more than 10 wraps without some sort of restriction.  For line sets that aren't used often I can stretch them out to 6+ years before they end up being retired.

Another reason I stopped sleeving is due to slack line tricks.  I find the ends of the sleeving or large knots can catch loops of line between slack and tensioned line transitions.

More important than sleeved/un-sleeved is what type of line you decide to use.   Wink
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 06:11 AM by CTaylor » Logged

RonG
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 06:18 AM »

I don't think it matters enough strength-wise to worry about sleeving.

In more than ten years at this, with the majority of hours on 75 or 90 pound unsleeved line, I've never broken a line at a knot. I've had lines break pretty much everywhere else.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This

I have used the same sets of line for countless hours of practice and competition (long beyond what was reasonable or smart....), and rarely seen a break at the knot.  And I have a tendency to "fly down" in line weight - given a choice of line weight for a given wind, and despite having a kite that pulls a bit, I'll usually opt for the lighter set.  I don't like what heavier line does to the overall feel of a kite.  In spite of all that, I have seen relatively few line breaks and none that I can recall right at the knot.

I spent years sleeving linesets, and the extra work simply made me procrastinate and not make linesets even when I needed them.  Save your time and don't bother with the sleeving.

More important than sleeved/un-sleeved is what type of line you decide to use.   Wink

That too.  I have always used Laser Pro Gold, and hated flying on anything else.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 06:21 AM by RonG » Logged
Allen Carter
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 05:46 PM »



I have used the same sets of line for countless hours of practice and competition (long beyond what was reasonable or smart....), and rarely seen a break at the knot.  And I have a tendency to "fly down" in line weight - given a choice of line weight for a given wind, and despite having a kite that pulls a bit, I'll usually opt for the lighter set.  I don't like what heavier line does to the overall feel of a kite.  In spite of all that, I have seen relatively few line breaks and none that I can recall right at the knot.

That's very helpful. I've often said YMMV when relating my sleeving experience because I'm fairly easy going flyer who doesn't do a lot of modern tricks. Ron is probably as close to the opposite of my style as you can get, so it's good to see we have similar experience with lines.

That said, even though Ron is a very aggressive flyer what he's doing is different than the new guy who's yanking way too hard at all the wrong times and breaking lines and sticks too. We've all been there.  Roll Eyes  The learning curve is brutal on equipment.


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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 06:33 PM »

It's quite provable that knots weaken the line. Nothing anecdotal about it. There's a science to it, largely related to how tight the smallest radius bite is within the knot.

But it's also the case that we seldom even approach the maximum load our lines can handle, even if the maximum is decreased by a knot.
Take 90# line. Even if a knot reduces the capacity by 50%, we still have a capacity of 45#

Kites don't actually pull as hard as we think. The direction that they pull on us makes them seem like they pull harder than they do. An adult, countering 45 pounds of pull, is leaning back surprisingly far.
Looking at it another way, picture your line passing over a pully, then straight down to a 50# bag of sand. Lifting that bag of sand is very dificult. Bending your elbow while doing it is a lot harder. Supporting that much of a load on a one inch wide strap around your wrist for any amount of time is down right painful.

Bottom line is that we don't push our lines hard enough to break them, even at the knot. We tend to nick them on something, pack them full of sand, or wear them out where they cross. If they last until they're brown and fuzzy, I figure I got a good long life out of them.

Sleeve if you like - it does keep the knots from decreasing the capacity quite so much. Probably most helpful on the lightest of lines though.
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2009, 01:36 AM »

I stopped sleeving years ago. As others have already said it doesn't affect strength enough to care about but I did find that lines would gradually drift out of adjustment with sleeving whereas unsleeved knots stayed put.

BTW some people find tying figure 8 knots fiddly, I've been doing mine with a double (two twist?) overhand knot. Its easy to tie, easy to keep lines equal and I've not managed to break one yet.

A not very explanatory photo of one but here goes:
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2009, 05:11 PM »

I actually have had no problems with single overhand knots-one at each end of the sleeving and one to form the loop Undecided
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