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Author Topic: Doom & gloom  (Read 6763 times)
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 02:17 PM »


Interests always shift, even globally, and kiting, both literally and figuratively is just something that changes with the wind.

Yeah, my take on all this is that when all is said and done, kite flying just isn't as interesting to people as it has been in the past.

There were two big WOW periods, for the general public the second built on the first.

In the '70s a lot of people saw a wide variety of kites for the first time. The first big festivals came around and there was the emergence of modern materials like mylar and nylon in production kites.

In the mid '80s to early '90s festivals that got rolling over the previous decade got a boost from "stunt kites". a big WOW. Teams with stacks of kites with tails from this era still make money doing demos at airshows and stuff.

By the end of the '90s a number of generations had gotten their WOW! and while many come back to festivals and bring their kids, it just isn't a new thing in the public consciousness anymore. Just another outdoor event to think about attending.

The jump from "WOW!" to "I Want To Do That!" is a fairly small percentage of the general population. So if less people are wowed these days, less people try it.

There are all kinds of things people do to promote kiting, bring some wow back, etc. All good stuff, but no matter what you do, kiting just isn't as interesting to the masses as it was. Sure kiting has changed over the years, and some of what sport kite flyers do isn't as interesting to civilians as the old trains & tails stuff, but it's mainly the culture that's changed, not kiting.
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 05:32 PM »


In the mid '80s to early '90s festivals that got rolling over the previous decade got a boost from "stunt kites". a big WOW. Teams with stacks of kites with tails from this era still make money doing demos at airshows and stuff.


Yeah, super WOW, as all new s#!t that the 80's produced!  Looking back at all the different designs and mind-f**k color schemes it's more like a WTF era....

I'm going to blame the Brits like Andy P, Paul L, Robertshaw, and everyone else involved in Tricky Flickery for killing it by introducing trick flying.  We would have been just fine if we stuck with stacking kites and putting on air shows!
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WinterDaze
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 08:37 PM »



There are all kinds of things people do to promote kiting, bring some wow back, etc. All good stuff, but no matter what you do, kiting just isn't as interesting to the masses as it was. Sure kiting has changed over the years, and some of what sport kite flyers do isn't as interesting to civilians as the old trains & tails stuff, but it's mainly the culture that's changed, not kiting.

Allan,

With all due respect... Given our current 21st Century issues; economic, environmental, and personal health wise, the idea that kiting is off the radar of the general public may well be correct but it is not because of the public, but the fault of the sports kiting industry.
As evidence I point you to Connor's sudden popularity, over 1,000,000 hits on his videos! Does no one see this as a million opportunities?? even if you got a take up rate of 1/100 you're still looking at 10,000 new participants, and that was from 'one' display of his skills!?! If a concerted marketing/media effort to alert/educate the GP is not rolled out on the back of this then the fault lies squarely on the industry.

OK If I was the boss of this and I was truly interested in growing the sport and therefore many business bottom lines, this is what I'd do...

Get the major manufacturers together, and get a commitment to create a collaborative re-branding campaign, TBH this would be a golden gig for a good advertising agency, and I bet you could find an up and coming agency to do it almost pro bono publico (for the public good) just so they could put a (biggish) feather in their cap.

Get a collaborative DVD produced, demonstrating the best of the best Kites and Pilots and give the bl00dy thing away! Or if you must sell it, price it at $4.95, the whole idea of spending $30 (1/3 the price of a good cheap kite) on a 'how to fly it' reference is a little outdated now don't you think? (Personally I'd be trying to get it included in some kitesurfing magazines, get it stuck on the front cover with a little rubber cement. it worries me when the only mags on the shelf in Australia that have the word 'kite' in their titles don't have one reference anywhere in them that out sport exists, someones dropping the ball big time there)
I'm sure it's been a good little earner for those who did them, but now lets move forward (the newest one must be 5 years old now [Soul Deep's "Trick or Treat" 2006]...) And lets face it, apart from the Micron, there isn't even a currently manufactured kite in the Prism DVD. I think the phrase 'sitting on your hands' comes to mind. I know the info is fairly up to date, but what other progressive industry is relying on 5 year old marketing material? That you have to buy??

Next, write something 'positive' about flying kites, in a format that can be easily translated into a 'lifestyle/sport' story, we call it a 'press release' where I come from. These days upwards of 50-80% of what you are reading in the newspapers or watching on the box is provided by this method of information dissemination, may not be good but it's the truth. Include some contact numbers and quotes from pilots under the age of 30. NO rolling out of people who thought the good old days of circles and squares with tails were the best, sorry but we're now moving on to a sport/past-time that's really, really challenging and exciting. So maybe we should find some youth representatives!?! Rolling out a portly 50+ Y/O in a tilly hat as a spokesperson, regardless of their experience, is not a good impression to leave on the GP. period. Sorry but that's the truth.

Face it, we (everyone, GP included) knows that a kite can go round and round with or without a tail, what they don't know is what they can do now! I know there are going to be a few noses out of joint, but TBH I think the reason the old guard is holding onto the 'they don't get it' card is because there aren't many of the old guard that can fly quality freestyle, but just because you can't do it, don't spoil it for the rest of us by bitching and moaning about it, This sport requires developing fast motor skills and quick reflexes, this, by it's physiological requirment is a young person's game, pure and simple.
I've demoed it in public and I fear I'm far from being good enough to really showcase what this sport could offer, yet I can tell you, if shown even my average skills on the lines, the GP do get it! The whole idea that we can assume what the GP gets and doesn't get is just plain arrogance and has no place in this discussion, I think it even boarders on chronic elitism.

At the end of the day we are offering to the general public something that improves hand eye coordination, spacial awareness, cardiovascular health, aerobic and anaerobic capacity, a pastime that rewards practice and patience, encourages problem solving in a 4 dimensional way, and teaches greater awareness of environment. All wrapped up in an activity that the output is seen as an expression of oneself. Tell me if you can, whats so hard to sell about this??? If I was in marketing and I was handed a brief of launching this new sport and this was what I was supplied with I'd be over the moon, it's an easy job....

But that's not all, the real hook that we have is that this sport is piggy backing off 2000+ years of free 'feel good factor'. I guess 60% of the humans on this planet alive today have flown a kite at some point in their life and enjoyed it. That is, in marketing terms a potential market place of what, a mere 3.5 billion people plus

So given all of that, which bit of this is difficult??



Oh I nearly forgot... Allan, kiting has changed  Cool Grin Undecided



Oh and BTW just to declare my own interests....



I don't actually want it personally to be any more popular than it already is, we're running out of room at my kite park as it is, and any more participants would mean I might have to 'wait my turn'.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 08:47 PM by WinterDaze » Logged

WinterDaze AoF
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 09:46 PM »

Every thing you just typed down, is, well, ummmm.....

...though I do like the enthusiasm in the ideas you proposed, but we are talking about kites.

Rounding up major manufacturers would kill the competition that pushes out newer and better designs and turn a major portion of the beginner level kites into a homogenous shade of blah.  Beginners also go for aesthetics.

There was and is a major advertisement for kiting with the advent of the Red Bull flight team.

Sport kiting is pretty old, so though we codgers may not attract the hip, young crowd, it should speak volumes that we were once young and were doing this.

There is already a health and wellness ad for the GP with kite surfing, and Prince Harry does it too.

Ironically, the same thing that helps exposure also hurts us, namely Youtube.

Finally, the whole "people who get" vs. those that "dont" might be a bit misconstrued.  It might be better to think of it "Those who want to get it" vs "Those who would rather watch everything on Youtube."


Shoot, I did forget, Everything has changed 

EDIT:  Holy crap!  I finally found it!
Here:http://tvshack.net/tv/Lewis_Black_s_Root_of_All_Evil__US_/season_1/episode_4/

For the quick version skip to 9:50, but overall it's a good episode.  Patton's rant starts at 7:10





 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:59 PM by Beachbum » Logged
WinterDaze
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2010, 12:59 AM »

Every thing you just typed down, is, well, ummmm.....

...though I do like the enthusiasm in the ideas you proposed, but we are talking about kites.

True. Optional answer 1/ And with that the industry that supports it, designers, manufacturers and retailers included. And I apologise for sound a little passionate, Feel free to tell me to STFU anytime, it didn't take me, 'a dyslexic' anytime at all to knock that out, just a few hours (of my time) and only a few minutes of yours to read it, and that's only if you want to.

Optional answer 2/ Gosh you're right, what was I thinking... it's just kites, who cares about them.... And look at me getting enthusiastic, what was I thinking.

BB, a question... what are you hoping to get out of reading this thread? A conformation of it's demise? Or a glimmer of hope that all is not lost?

Quote
Rounding up major manufacturers would kill the competition that pushes out newer and better designs and turn a major portion of the beginner level kites into a homogeneous shade of blah.  Beginners also go for aesthetics.
Not to make a single company, just some targeted marketing and promotion, in this case I was thinking another DVD, I know they inspired me, maybe I'm not the only one...
I'm sensing that many smaller boutique manuf. would find it hard to fund a production of a DVD themselves, but by working together with the goal of making something they can all use to help promote the sport might not be a stupid idea.
Many other sports do it that way... Skiing/Snowbording/wakeboarding/skating and even Kite Surfing do it this way. The words you look for are 'Proudly sponsored by'.... and then a list of brands

Quote
There was and is a major advertisement for kiting with the advent of the Red Bull flight team.
So we can call that one... and that was by Redbull, an outsider soft drink company, who I might add is pretty cutting edge with the sports they chose to support... (I'm yet to see the RedBull lawn bowls team). And to be honest seeing an outside industry using our sport as a vehical to promote their product says something. I see more real estate brochures picturing kites than I see published promotion of the sport.

Quote
Sport kiting is pretty old, so though we codgers may not attract the hip, young crowd, it should speak volumes that we were once young and were doing this.
It does, but that's those already doing it, I'm speaking of bringing some new blood in, hey I'm nearly 40 (next month) I think I end up with the old codger badge then Wink

Quote
There is already a health and wellness ad for the GP with kite surfing, and Prince Harry does it too.
And with the lawns available to him I can only imagine that his VF entry would be well received, but as you say, he's kite surfing, not freestylin', my point is he probably doesn't even know it's out there.

Quote
Ironically, the same thing that helps exposure also hurts us, namely Youtube.
How?

Quote
Finally, the whole "people who get" vs. those that "dont" might be a bit misconstrued.  It might be better to think of it "Those who want to get it" vs "Those who would rather watch everything on Youtube."
My point exactly, promoting it might just get some of those overweight kids (and adults) off their bums and outside, and maybe, just maybe save a few folk from an early grave  Roll Eyes


Quote
Shoot, I did forget, Everything has changed...
slowly but surely.




 
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WinterDaze AoF
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2010, 02:12 AM »

I F'ING swear I'm gonna drop kick this computer.

WTF I can't quote and do all the cool stuff without the text window scrolling up and I can not even see what I am typing.  Piece of &%#*ING &%#*!

OK, so second try here.  First of all I say Glimmer of hope, and I mean conformation, or ensuring that our sport is going no where in the good sense.

STFU?  No way man.  I dig your enthusiasm.

As for the How? on the Youtube comment, I mean c'mon, Patton put it out there pretty good, which also leads into the fat (I'm not for being PC, ie "overweight") kids comment.  People now have the "Buy it now" equivalent on that website.  They get interested, inundate themselves with videos of us flying our asses off, then get over it.  Nothing "active" involved.

The whole point is that kiting has always, how do I say this, worked with "active" participation.  Like ex-kitehead said, the 80's were all about being part of it.  Everything is different now.  It's important that we push our hobby, but yet again, there is no amount of money that will make it "Take off" like it did. That's life.

Then there is the DVD comment....I guess it's best to say that you had to be there, at that point of time at least.  If you search through my postings I have referenced a 10 year old video when someone has asked how to axel.  I totally agree that we need a fresh, new, downloadable, free, media source to keep truckin'.  My concern is that we can go too far with a trick intensive vid, and a new flier will go WTF? then go on Youtube, or even the net in general, and look up all the stuff, then get over it.

Finally, as I try to not kick this laptop into the next century.  I'm 28.  I started a long time ago at the age of 7.  I watched the guys fly and they let me handle their very expensive kites.  I saw the changes from air show to trick flying and the decrease of fliers and newcomers frequenting the "motherland".  In no way was I trapping you WD, but I have seen how well a peer to peer system works versus indirect methods.

EDIT: Aw crap, I forgot to reinstate my "Zen" moment,

Kiting is peer to peer.  Keep flying, and acknowledge onlookers and hand them the lines.  I am not above giving someone the controls to my main whip.  In the end though, I have seen more returns with those who fly a stack, or something with tails than something that can axel.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 02:29 AM by Beachbum » Logged
DWayne
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2010, 01:37 PM »

In the end though, I have seen more returns with those who fly a stack, or something with tails than something that can axel.



I think it boils down to what the GP understands. They understand circles, figure eights, triangles, etc. They don't understand comete's or yo-fades.

Denny
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2010, 02:16 PM »

Piece of &%#*ING &%#*!

Wow, what's the censored word? OK, this was funnier before the original quote was edited...


I get loads of attention when I'm flying freestyle, I think it just depends on how you go about it. Obviously, if you just smack the kite around in a sloppy mess, most people will not be very impressed, especially if you ad-lib a few "landings" (I'm not saying I don't do this myself, btw!). If you execute a few concise moves, not that quadruple-wrapped inverse fractured comete you can almost nail, but something you can do very well every time (even carving a plain old square in the sky is an eye catcher if done well), people will notice. The next step is to make yourself approachable. If you just keep flying with a look of fierce concentration on your face, most folks will just watch quietly for a bit then move on. Would you walk up to a musician and start asking newbie questions in the middle of a tune? No way! Hot dog it for a bit, then land the kite, drop those straps, and acknowledge your little audience with a smile.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 12:19 AM by freecheese » Logged
WinterDaze
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 07:33 PM »

They don't understand comete's or yo-fades.

Denny

Either do I Wink
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WinterDaze AoF
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2010, 07:57 PM »

BB,

Thanks for your considered reply and view on this, I notice that this thread has had over 700 reads, I am going to assume that there are quite a few curious folk watching from the sidelines, weather they are interested in the outcome of this discussion on just waiting for a potential verbal blood bath to break out is tricky to ascertain, as there are many eye's but few voices  Wink



You bring up some very good points, and I don't deny that the modern world is full of 'other distractions', and that immediate gratification is our biggest hurdle to the growth of this sport, but that doesn't make it impossible, just a lot harder than it was 'in the good old days'.

TBH I feel like a bit of a d!ckhe@d ranting and raving on like this and I'm sure there's a few folk out there that feel the same way, certainly there has been little enthusiasm for the position I have taken on this. So for now I'm going to step away from this. I have created another topic here and encourage the watchers to take a quick look. Again I think most of you will again think I'm a bit of a DH for even proposing such an idea. But at least it will conclude the points I'm trying to put forward and save you from anymore of my impassioned rants.

For the record, Doom and Gloom are mind sets, and therefore changeable if you have the desire.

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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 10:01 PM »

I think the general public is beyond hope. Especially here in Ustraaalia. The fields I fly on are 3 cricket pitches and there is usually cricket on in the summer on 2 out of three of them. I have seen young boys of 10 yrs doing bowling practice for 3 hours solid and when they look away across the field at the kite they are told, "don't watch the kite, that's gay"

On another occasion a your cricketer stuck his car in a ditch in the pouring rain. I pulled it out for him. As we were all stood around the lads father approached and asked his son how he got his car out. The son replied, "the kite-weiro helped me"
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 11:06 PM »

Maybe I'll throw a little bit of curveball into this one...

If you want to impress a typical "man in the street" non kite flying crowd, stop doing tricks with a dual line. Fly a Rev. Seriously, an adequately proficient Rev flyer is capable of doing more wow-able (sp?) moves in sh!ti-er wind compared to a world class dual line kite flyer in semi-good wind.

For the record, I fly both and enjoy the flippy-floppy dual line stuff more than Revs Smiley

-Darryl
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 11:09 PM by lasapcheong » Logged

"One day I'll learn to comete my quad and hover my dual-line for a minute anywhere in the window"
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 11:20 PM »

Whoa!!  That cannot go unchallenged!   Huh Huh

If you are talking the run of the mill,  crashes the kite every minute dual line flyer, then I buy it, but world class - not even close!

An adequate Rev flyer has shown his stuff in about 30 seconds of flying.  A world class dual line flyer can keep blowing you away with new stuff even after 5 minutes.  It's all about ACTION!

 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 11:22 PM by tpatter » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 11:31 PM »

Nope, sorry. I disagree.

I was at a festival, Blackheath i think it was sometime in the late 90's and the cream of british trick flyers were there. Tim Benson, Bungle, Richard Marsh, Big Gary, the Mullins boys, and others. All tricking away in one corner of the arena. A father and son walked past with their newly purchased2 line delta and the son asked the father what they were all doing. The father replied, "oh, they're beginners son, that's why they keep crashing"

People just do not get it.

They would rather watch a rev, or something with a long tail or team or pairs than tricks/freestyle.
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 02:41 AM »

Maybe I'll throw a little bit of curveball into this one...

If you want to impress a typical "man in the street" non kite flying crowd, stop doing tricks with a dual line. Fly a Rev.

Top quality flamebait there  Cheesy

However, I do agree. I'm not getting into an argument about whether they get it but maybe its just easy to understand what's happening with repeated spin, dive, stop 3" off the floor, likewise anyone can enjoy pretty shapes drawn with a tail.

Remember the first time you saw a comete, did you understand what was going on? I didn't. However there is the dilemma, what looks good for everyone else isn't going to keep the flier entertained.

I fly for my own amusement not anyone else's, so I'll stick to my flippy-floppy stuff.

I think it was ABW who said 'trick flying is like masturbation, satisfying for you but no one else wants to see you do it'  Tongue


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