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Author Topic: Has anyone thought of designing a combination of there 2 or 3 favorite kites!!  (Read 1936 times)
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Flying High
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« on: August 13, 2010, 03:44 AM »

I have thought to do the math of why I like one kite over another, If you could work out the two kites that you like the best and combine them together, then spend the time in a CAD program and build something in between. I will never ever do this as a money making idea but I would still like to do the math and create my design for fun. I have noticed if you take images of kites into photoshop and compare they are more similar than you think. Something to think about. Cheers
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:47 AM by Flying High » Logged
inewham
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 04:43 AM »

Yes.

Aside from the fact that all kite makers draw influence from their favourites when the get started, that's almost literally how I got started. Sort of...

I was amongst other things supporting Microstation in the mid 90's and began to think about modelling kites in 3D, just as a way of keeping my hand in - I supported it but didn't draw with it day to day.

I began by trying to draw a few, badly. Then thought about trying to merge them as an excercise in scaling etc. for different sized kites.

None of them were real designs or likely to fly well but I started to think what if I wanted to make a kite that was a merge of 3 others, if I like characteristic X from kite Y what produces that effect and that set me off on a new tangent trying to identify what design element has what effect - the result of that is my website, link in sig.

I never actually built from that CAD model so there wasn't a pure merge of several kites ever made but it was an educational process. The Acara (plans my site) drew a lot of influences from those CAD models which were drawn from kites like the Outer Space, Midi 98, Sandpipers and others of that era. 

In hindsight simply merging a full sized OS and the just over 3/4 sized Midi 98 for example wouldn't really have worke because with experience, as you scale a kite you generally need to adjust the standoff length by more than the scaling factor. e.g when making 3/4 version of a big kite you generally need to add a bit to the depth to avoid it getting skittish.
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talev
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 04:47 AM »

Why is there a feeling that all these threads over the past few days are along the same lines and will probably draw the inevitable responses?
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inewham
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 05:14 AM »

Why is there a feeling that all these threads over the past few days are along the same lines and will probably draw the inevitable responses?

Re: the responses; maybe because I've had a huge workload recently culminating in auditors looking over my shoulder for the first half of the week and now that's done I'm slacking off and just replied to quite a few threads.

Sorry if I've been keyboard happy, you won't hear from me again for a while after today  Smiley
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DWayne
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 05:29 AM »

Why is there a feeling that all these threads over the past few days are along the same lines and will probably draw the inevitable responses?
Why the negative post when its so easy to just turn the page?

Denny
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mikenchico
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 06:56 AM »

I do the layering to compare kites too, all your seeing is the frame shape and trailing edge cut using my method and doesn't really prove anything other then the kites are similar. Small changes in any of those things can make a big difference, there's also the size since I have to scale one picture to fit the other, then there's the fact that the pictures were definitely taken at different angles so even that profile is changed. But it's still an interesting exercise where I've found some amazing similarities between kites.

A case in point to show how some small changes can make a pretty large difference. The Blue Moon Mantis, Muse, Exile & Mongoose are all based off the same platform. I think that means the frames are the same, I know when I lost an upper spreader on my Exile the Muse was a perfect replacement. Ken has changed the kite using trailing edge changes, bridling and standoff lengths. Are the kites similar? Yes. Are they the same? I doubt anybody would say they are the same who has flown any two of them.

Just averaging two designs isn't going to give you the best of both, it would be as likely to accentuate the worst of both.

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inewham
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 07:07 AM »

A case in point to show how some small changes can make a pretty large difference. The Blue Moon Mantis, Muse, Exile & Mongoose are all based off the same platform.

Its only natural that each subsequent design would be an evolution of its predecessors, no sense in re-inventing the wheel every time.

As you say though the smallest changes can make big differences; try laying a Nirvana on top of an Opium. Very, very close, definitely an evolution but what a difference in the way the fly!
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Schook
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 07:12 AM »

A case in point to show how some small changes can make a pretty large difference. The Blue Moon Mantis, Muse, Exile & Mongoose are all based off the same platform.

.......Are the kites similar? Yes. Are they the same? I doubt anybody would say they are the same who has flown any two of them.

I have owned and flown Mantis and Exiles.  I enjoy the Mantis but just never "got it" with the Exile. Embarrassed  So flying something that is a blend of the Mantis and Exile would be tough sell to me until I could actually fly it myself.

I have never designed a kite but I think it would be difficult to blend 2 or more kites into one super kite.  If it were so easy to do, I think someone by now would have blended a Sea Devil, Fearless, Vendetta, Nirvana, and Deep Space into that "ONE KILLER KITE"  Wink

jim
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stapp59
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 10:43 AM »

A case in point to show how some small changes can make a pretty large difference. The Blue Moon Mantis, Muse, Exile & Mongoose are all based off the same platform. ....Are the kites similar? Yes. Are they the same? I doubt anybody would say they are the same who has flown any two of them.
I have owned and flown Mantis and Exiles.  I enjoy the Mantis but just never "got it" with the Exile. Embarrassed  So flying something that is a blend of the Mantis and Exile would be tough sell to me until I could actually fly it myself.

Mike is certainly correct that bridle and standoff changes can make a substantial difference in the way a kite flies.

Jim I have a particular Red Exile with a few tweaks that I'm interested in having you try to see if corrects a certain err 'dysfunction'  Wink  Let me know if interested...

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Schook
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 09:16 PM »


Jim I have a particular Red Exile with a few tweaks that I'm interested in having you try to see if corrects a certain err 'dysfunction'  Wink  Let me know if interested...



This one?  Wink


My only regret in letting that one go is I liked the color scheme.  A very generous offer however. 
Wanting to say no thank you... 
...but now hearing a little voice in my head saying "you are so curious Jim, so curious" Undecided

jim 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 09:23 PM by Schook » Logged

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Allen Carter
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 11:15 PM »

My three favorite kites are totally different from each other. I wouldn't want something in between, but I have thought about a hybrid or merge with two kites that I like but were lacking in some way.

I know that many designers take an existing sail and use it as a starting place. The new Skyburner Ocius started out as a slightly enlarged Nighthawk.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
stapp59
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 01:05 AM »

This one?  Wink

My only regret in letting that one go is I liked the color scheme.  A very generous offer however. 
Wanting to say no thank you... 
...but now hearing a little voice in my head saying "you are so curious Jim, so curious" Undecided

jim 

The very one.  I'm not trying to sell it back but rather to see if you like it better tuned a bit for our inland winds. It is also currently framed as a Lite with a 3PT frame making it lighter but still having some mass for tricking. I know you like Ken's kites, hence the offer and I'm interested in your feedback.

Steve
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Flying High
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 03:15 AM »

. But it's still an interesting exercise where I've found some amazing similarities between kites.

I have noticed that the JJF Matzel edition and The Sano on there leading edges are within 1 degree of each other however down stairs [ bottom of kite ] the Sano has more sail than the matzel. So my deduction are these 1. Angle of leading edge is important, Angle of lower sail is important - depending upon the wind?HuhHuhHuh? More to think about?
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Bob D
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2010, 05:08 AM »

That's an interesting idea but would it be cheating to have a kite that does everything?

I'm at a point where I can I do some things better on certain kites but I can't do them easily all on one kite. Summer got de-railed a bit with heat and injuries but my plan is to learn to fly better by just flying my Nirvanas. (Though I AM tempted to cheat once in awhile.) In the end, it's the pilot. The kite then just becomes bling. (I like that Talon I see on the right in the vendor list!)
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Bob D.
zippy8
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2010, 06:05 AM »

would it be cheating to have a kite that does everything?
No.

If it was a kite that does everything for you (not available in shops now, despite what you may occasionally read) then that is cheating.

Simply having a kite with well rounded capabilities is kind of what kite designers have been trying to do all these years.

Mike.
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