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Author Topic: What makes a 500 dollar kite?  (Read 15559 times)
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cids
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« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2010, 07:39 AM »


Quote
No soup for you!
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Soup Nazi !  This is very funny.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 07:41 AM by cids » Logged

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jaybett
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« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2010, 01:47 PM »

From watching Lam sew and frame one of the early Fearless's. He builds each kite as a custom. While other makers, design a top kite, they look to produce as many kites as possible and as efficiently as possible. I have no doubt that other top makers could make a kite, that would be the equal of Lam's. When they do, they call it a special edition. The R-Sky kites, and the more recent WidowMaker, were all in the price range of a Lam kite.

Jay

i am going to guess that Ken McNeill, Mark of JoE, Tim Benson and others would take serious offense to that comment...
How so?

Each one of them make an excellent kite and I've been fortunate to fly all of them. I don't believe any one of them spend the amount of time making a kite that Lam does. In a way that is a compliment to them, for finding ways to produce kites more efficiently than Lam.

As I stated I believe each one of them could sew kite that is equal to or possibly exceeds Lam's. But the question is at what cost? To me that is why Lam's kite's cost more then his competitors.

Jay

"This is complete bullsh#t.  Lam charges more for his time.  That's that." 

I believe that I have been making that argument all along?

"He is making SULs with one f'in panel!!  Are you kidding me?  Have you seen a Talon's panel layout?"

Did you read the parts of my post that you quoted?

"Seriously, I can't believe this stuff keeps happening here.  He is a business man as well as a kite flyer.  You all are kidding yourselves if you think otherwise.  Sheez."     

I don't think I implied anything else

"There in nothing you can say which will convince me that a one panel SUL has 450 USD worth of RnD and labor in it.  Nope."

I've never stated that Rnd was part of the price. We have already agreed that a Lam kite is expensive, because of the amount of time it takes him to sew a sail. What is so hard to understand about that?

"Is he a nice guy? Absolutely.  Is he a great pilot?  One of the best.  Can he sew?  Hell yeah.  Have you seen his roks?  And his stunt kites are expensive...among the most expensive in the world." 

Hmm I seem to remember when Mike was setting up his pantheon of fliers, someone arguing that Lam wasn't all that good of a pilot.

"You like them, fine.  But don't go trashing on other builders in your kool-aid hissy fit.  This is nuts." 

Again I'd suggest you read my posts before you quote them. I have kites from other makers and I appreciate them.

A point that people seem to be stumbling over is Price versus Performance. It is impossible to objectively quantify performance gains by price. At the prices of any high end kite, what a person is buying it's particular characteristics or traits.

It is also impossible to say one kite is a better then another kite because appreciating those characteristics and traits is  personal
 

"I'd rather have a million threads about what line length to use rather than find a 5 page thread ending with these contents.  Wake up already.  You sound like naive 6th graders arguing about whose dad can beat up whose."

Wake up to what? Where is your more mature version of how we should be viewing this subject.    


obi

Jay
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tpatter
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« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2010, 01:59 PM »

Ah, this discussion!

I'd LIKE to drive a Mercedes E-class, but I don't - it's just not worth the $ TO ME.  I drive a 10 year old Subaru Outback instead and have no issues doing so - I like the car just fine.

I do not belittle Mercedes for what they ask for their car just because I don't think its worth their asking price; nor do I belittle those who are willing to pay what I assume they think is a reasonable amount for a great car.

Question: What makes a $500 kite?
Answer: Enough people willing to pay that amount for it in such numbers that you have actually heard about both the kite and its price.

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6 kite tom
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« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2010, 02:04 PM »

There seems to be a perception on this forum that Lam has made an inferior product.....

Nobody in their right mind would make such an accusation and I don't recall anyone seriously making it either. It only takes a glance here to see that the man knows how to put a kite together.

Quote
but has hood winked a bunch of noobs, into buying his kite at a premium price.

Not at all how I would have phrased it but his Fearless kites start at $450 which isn't where some equally highly regarded kitemakers come close to with their most expensive, fully custom, premium sparred kites. You do have to wonder what the extra money goes towards, which is what I took this thread to be about.

Mike.


But there are some that seriously, continuously, openly take shots and make underhanded remarks about Lam's kites, the way they look, how much they cost, the people that buy them, fly them and on and on. Negative comments are dropped in on lots of different and quite often unrelated threads. Just read. That's why the defensiveness comes out, nothing to do with other builders being inferior but just people getting fed up with all the unqualified negative comments. I find it tiresome. I think that Jay misunderstood Mike's (Chico) point about the Freestylist but I understand the feeling. Enough is enough.

The Fearless is not new and it's popular despite the price for a reason. Because of the popularity there are bound to be post, questions, opinions and yes, excitement about it too. People that don't like it, we get it, you don't think it's worth it. Have a different opinion? Fine qualify it, post it but does it have to be the troll target of choice?

It was the same thing with the Widow Maker a few years ago, people that had never flown or seen the kite constantly talking crap about it. Cluttering up threads with the continuous unqualified negativity. I like that kite too, by the way Wink

I've already said it several times, the Fearless are $450 and up but you can buy a Transformer TL for $289-$350. That's in line with just about every other similar quality kite. They are just as well made as the Fearless but cost less. Super fun too.

There are plenty of nice flying very well made kites available. I've been lucky enough to try different builders wares and have found several that I want to own and enjoy. Others may be very well made but weren't something I would want to buy. Not at any price, just not my style but I understand that others do like them and think it's money well spent.

Everyone that buys a kite decides if their is money is worth what they get in return. For the Fearless, it has been for me. Sure I wish I could buy one for less, but that's what they cost. I really like mine and fly them a lot. No regrets. The cost per use continues to drop with time and the have a nice resale value if I decide to move on to something else. 

But spend your money on what you like.
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James -
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streamhawk
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« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2010, 02:22 PM »

What makes a $500 kite?

the fact that you paid 500 bucks for it.

There, wasn't that worth 9 pages? How much is 9 pages of reply worth?........

Bill
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #125 on: August 12, 2010, 02:42 PM »

What makes a $500 kite?

the fact that you paid 500 bucks for it.

There, wasn't that worth 9 pages? How much is 9 pages of reply worth?........

Bill

At two cents a page..................I'd say this will be over before we hit a quarter USD   Undecided
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Kant Fly......might just as well buy!
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« Reply #126 on: August 12, 2010, 04:01 PM »

What makes a $500 kite?

the fact that you paid 500 bucks for it.

There, wasn't that worth 9 pages? How much is 9 pages of reply worth?........

Bill
9 pages of debate is worth alot, because it means there is interest in the hobby (sport). It's better than crickets...
 Wink
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flat6nut
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« Reply #127 on: August 12, 2010, 05:17 PM »

Ok time for the noob to jump in.

First off...Nowhere in the OP's origanal post was Lam's kites brought up.
Second...I actually had a Fearless on my list of kites to get souly on the fact that I really, really like the way they look. I didnt care that the price was high because I think it looks badass...and alot of other kite designs dont do it for me because of the panal layout looks to boxy for my taste. (yeah, thats a noob comment, but hey...if I am going to fly a kite for hours at a time, its gotta look good to me)
Third...The Fearless just may be knocked off my kite list because I dont want to be associated with some of you that have posted here, plus I lost a little respect for Lam with the swap meet post of his.


Finally...this is a kite forum for kites sake. God forbid we were talking politics! You people need to relax and find some better wind because you really need to chill!

Michael
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Dolphinboy
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« Reply #128 on: August 12, 2010, 05:37 PM »

Ok time for the noob to jump in.

First off...Nowhere in the OP's origanal post was Lam's kites brought up.


Michael

Michael buddy, The Fearless is specifically mentioned in the OP. Good luck with whatever you decide on.

Peace
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James -
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cids
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« Reply #129 on: August 12, 2010, 06:22 PM »

Quote
First off...Nowhere in the OP's origanal post was Lam's kites brought up.
                                                              RIGHT HERE
                                                                    Roll Eyes
                                                                     v
                                                                     v
I own a Prism E3, and I thought that was expensive! Is a Fearless that expensive because it's handmade, or is there really that much performance difference? I imagine the answer is both, but I'm curious on comparison between the E3, which seems to have a lot of capability. By price comparison, I would think the E3 and Fearless would be like a butter knife versus a machete! Cheesy I'm scared to tell the wife that I want a half-grand sail!

No soup for you too !  Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 06:30 PM by cids » Logged

Skywatch 1 wind meter
Climax Protec 100ft./55Kg.
Shanti 100ft./90Lbs.(back-up)
Shanti 102ft./150Lbs. flying line sets
Slate color beat-up Fearless STD(Fearless SUL US, 3PT LS) - Main tricking kite
White Fearless STD(5PT) - Back up kite
adx1592
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« Reply #130 on: August 12, 2010, 07:03 PM »

I agree with Mike up there, I think this threads gone on much to long.
We fly what we like, regardless of price or reputation. Thats all there really is to say (just my opinion).
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-Devin Cobleigh-Morrison
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« Reply #131 on: August 12, 2010, 07:09 PM »

We fly what we like, regardless of price or reputation. Thats all there really is to say (just my opinion).
That's right Devin.  Wink
Heck, there's even people that pay big bucks for R-Sky kites.  Cheesy

Denny
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I always wanted to be a procrastinator..........
I just never got around to it.
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« Reply #132 on: August 12, 2010, 07:42 PM »

Sorry kids...my "bad". It was in the OPs first post.  Hope you still get the point.
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temoniprince
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« Reply #133 on: August 12, 2010, 07:45 PM »

We fly what we like, regardless of price or reputation. Thats all there really is to say (just my opinion).
That's right Devin.  Wink
Heck, there's even people that pay big bucks for R-Sky kites.  Cheesy

Denny
Ahahaha do i hear 9 more pages denny lol ahahahah Cheesy Cheesy
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #134 on: August 12, 2010, 11:45 PM »

Yeah Right!  If ya'll think we can grab another 4 pages out of this nonsense, then you're all much worse off than myself..........I love it when we all, including myself, whom is one of Lam's most cultist blinded followers, decide to keep this molly folly crap going......I love all the kites we own from all the boutique builders, which the number is most embarrassing to admit to...............all of us need to get a life and just go out and fly...........no matter what the price you pay or how many different models you decide to collect/own/promote...........

Sixth Graders?Huh?  Very not so/////////Kindergartners more likely.....................barely past potty training and with absolutely no apparent discipline from your parents...........

Shameful at the least
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Kant Fly......might just as well buy!
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