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Author Topic: Broken Line - Best knot to use - Easiest  (Read 3701 times)
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asburyparkjohn
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« on: September 20, 2010, 11:24 AM »

It happens occasionally when the wind picks up and all I have with me is one kite and one flying line since I don't always carry my bag and extra lines to the beach with other people.  The line snaps off the end where the kite line is attached. The other end of the flying line of course is the larks head knot to the bridle line of the kite. Most people recommend a surgeon's knot. I tried the Larks Head knot three times but it kept breaking. Putting this question another way and making it simpler ... what is the knot you go with to to join two lines together with no slippage and best strength - but easy to do in the field. Just curious.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 11:26 AM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

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chilese
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 11:32 AM »

1 Carry a spare line-set in case the first one breaks.
2 No repair knot works well.
3 Make a new shorter line-set which takes the break area out of use.
4 Buy a new line set from our host.  Smiley

As a worst case example:

100' line breaks in the middle

Make 2 x 49' line-sets

JMHO  Smiley
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 11:44 AM »

I have to agree although never used a surgeons knot or barrel (blood) knot but I think the key word here is break area. So the next question is what knot is used on the end of the loop for a typical flying line? Just curious.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 11:47 AM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
sbrown
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 11:46 AM »

Splicing is probably the strongest method.
google "No-Knot Line Splicing" for instructions, but you may find that it's easier to carry a spare set.
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tpatter
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 11:50 AM »

If it breaks near the kite (or handles) thats good news.  Smiley  You can just re-cut and equalize and probably only lose a foot of total length.   
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 11:57 AM »

There probably is no 100% cure but I will try this next time. Cut off the damge area to say 6" - Foot, then equalize both lines then try the Larks Head. If this fails then move to the Surgeon's Knot or Blood Knot but the line diameters here are not of equal diameter and hence will promote slippage. Just trying to save $25-30 here - I usually bring a back-up. Just curious if someone has a good relief method for this scenario which is EASY and works for a good period of time - that's all ....
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 11:59 AM by asburyparkjohn » Logged

In my kite inventory of Dual Line Kites: Benson - Inner Space, Signature Kite of Top Pilots on an Old Style Gemini ; L'Atelier xt.z. ; Fearless-Tatto (SSUL), Fearless - SUL, Light & Light-Vent , Transformer TL's: (SUL & Light), Transformer 2 SUL & UL.
Allen Carter
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 01:12 PM »

If the break is near an end, the best thing to do is cut the otehr line to the same length and tie new loops.

I beleive splicing is the only way to go for actually repairing flying lines. Any knot is going to be weak but worse, it's going to snag and bind.

I was skeptical about splicing until I watched someone do a field repair on a lineset between events at a festival. It takes some practice, but it can be done quickly and the lines are flyable. This particular team doesn't carry backup linesets and they perform all over the place. He said it would take just as long to go get the other lines, unroll them, remove and roll up the old lines and unless he carried around spares for each team length he might have to shorten the set anyway. I was impressed.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 02:22 PM »

i have heard people having luck with splicing the line with a knotless tool or some such...
I would just carry more lines.....and make shorter ones...

I know that stoney had a practice in mind for joining split lines up a few months back...
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rxburner
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 09:03 PM »

Breaking a line set is rare. tose it and start with a new one, if you want and even set.
you should have several spares on hand.

Rx
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asburyparkjohn
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 09:24 PM »

Rx- Most line sets I break are only 50# in light winds that eventually go strong through the day. I prefer 50# as long as possible as the kite moves better through the tricks with little residual drag. I only move to 90# when I go to a standard kite or on the high end of the SD-Light (8-10 mph). It's a personal preference as most of my flying is in light - moderate winds. I hate winds over 10-12 mph. Too much work but like anybody else I take what the winds give me.
Norm - Not bad Norm. I like this knot. One question however when you say make sure you off-set them, in the picture the two overhand knots are side by side to avoid slippage. What is meant in your post "Be sure to off-set them?"
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DWayne
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 10:05 PM »

Personally I think broken lines sets belong in the trash bin, but if you insist on repairing them, a blood knot would work.

Denny
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mikenchico
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2010, 09:01 PM »

Am I understanding you're breaking it at the knot on 50 lb linesets in too much wind?

Sleeve them

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Gamelord
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2010, 11:58 AM »

The problem is not the knot, but the line itself.  Although Spectra line is rated at 10 times the strength of steel, it has an incredibly low melting point.  Any knot you put in the line regardless how well or how strong it is, will eventually cut through the line itself because of the friction of the heat build up in the knot.  This is why your lines almost always break just barely past the knotted end or sleeving.

Even a simple figure 8 knot in a single line that is not broken will eventually break when flown or tugged on.  The heat build up weakens the individual fibers of the line which eventually cause the line to fail.

This heads towards the great "Sleeve" or "Don't Sleeve" debate and I don't wish to go there but the problem is not getting a knot to hold as there are several knots that you can use that will not come undone, the problem is that ANY knot you use will again eventually break down the fibers of the spectra and fail.  Sometimes it is immediately, sometimes it will last a week or so, but it will eventually fail.  The only way to totally fix the problem is to replace the line.

This advise is worth exactly what you paid for it. Smiley

Hope that helps
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2010, 02:38 PM »

That may be your experience, but I've been flying unsleeved spectra for 10 years and I've never had a knot failure.

The main cause of breakage at the loops I've seen is from physical damage. the loops just wear out from use.

Wear or damage anywhere on a set is the biggest cause of failure. Flying on snaggy fields is usually the culprit for me. When I flew almost exclusively on clean grass my lines lasted longer.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2010, 03:57 PM »

I used to fly my lines past the point when I knew they were too worn and should be retired.  I would keep flying them until they broke.

Then, I lost my Fearless in Elliot Bay due to a line break!  Luckily, a kayaker was kind enough to retrieve the kite for me so I did not have to swim in to get it (but I would have - and that it cold water!).   A similar thing happened to this same kite a year ago, but it landed on a post that time.  Now, I am rethinking this policy.

-Tom
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