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Author Topic: Mongoose/Talon  (Read 3206 times)
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DonB
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« on: December 13, 2010, 06:03 PM »

I'm getting back to kite flying after a loooong (12 yr) absence and could use some help deciding what kite to get. My favorite kite was a Little Sister, made in France by Wolfe Designs as I recall.  It was quite sensitive to subtle inputs, quick, agile, very little pull, clear feedback, sufficiently precise, and very quiet.  The qualities of the Little Sister interest me but I would like a kite a somewhat more forgiving than it was as my 66 year old reflexes are not that quick  Shocked .  I'd also like better low wind performance.

Two kites that have caught my eye are the Mongoose and Talon.  I've read all the reviews and forum comments I could find and watched numerous videos of both kites and no doubt either would be more than enough kite for me for a long time.  

If anyone has experience flying both I would very much like to hear what you feel are the differences between the two and any other comments you feel might be useful.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Don



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kiteclique
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 06:44 PM »


Mongoose reviews here

http://v2.1.kiteclique.com/wordpress-3.0/wordpress/uncategorized/blue-moon-kites-mongoose-review-by-ian-newham

http://v2.1.kiteclique.com/wordpress-3.0/wordpress/uncategorized/blue-moon-kites-mongoose-review-by-glen-warren

and Talon here

http://v2.1.kiteclique.com/wordpress-3.0/wordpress/misc/jest-of-eve-talon-by-bryan-beasley

You really can't go wrong with either - both impeccably made. The Mongoose will offer the precision you mention though and will fly in lower winds.

The Talon has lighter inputs and is a more radical / freestyle oriented flier.

-Frazer
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cids
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 07:21 PM »

I think you need a big trick kite...at less 250cm in width. 
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DonB
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 07:28 PM »


Mongoose reviews here...

and Talon here...

The Mongoose will offer the precision you mention though and will fly in lower winds.

The Talon has lighter inputs and is a more radical / freestyle oriented flier.

-Frazer



Thank you very much for the response Frazer.

The reviews you mentioned helped me narrow down to these kites (and also the Mamba),  but unfortunately I couldn't get an idea of the differences from them. I really appreciate you're pointing out some differences,  it's helpful information.

I think you need a big trick kite...at less 250cm in width.

Thanks for commenting cids.  Care to share your reasons for the suggestion and some examples?

Don
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cids
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2010, 07:37 PM »

Bigger kite usually fly slower, it gives you more time to react/to plan your next move.  If you have slow hands, then bigger kite is more suitable for you.  Lately I'm watching some K2 videos.  It looks very delicious. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 08:19 PM »

I've only flown both briefly, but I think Frazer pretty much nailed it.  The Mongoose is a smooth and precise flyer that does tricks pretty well.  The Talon is trick monster that flys pretty well.
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DonB
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 08:26 PM »

Bigger kite usually fly slower, it gives you more time to react/to plan your next move.  If you have slow hands, then bigger kite is more suitable for you.  Lately I'm watching some K2 videos.  It looks very delicious. Smiley

Thanks cids but I don't think my reflexes are that slow! I did have an opportunity to fly a run of the mill 3/4 a while ago, it was the first time flying in over a decade and I had no problem making it dance so I don't think reflexes will be a problem.

I used to have a Phantom and also a Big Brother full size kites and found them rather boring, I prefer something quicker and more agile.

BTW, I checked out some K2 vids, nice kite, just not what I had in mind.

I've only flown both briefly, but I think Frazer pretty much nailed it.  The Mongoose is a smooth and precise flyer that does tricks pretty well.  The Talon is trick monster that flys pretty well.

Thanks tpatter, I just wish I could get a chance to fly them.  Sad

Cheers,

Don
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inewham
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 12:16 AM »

My favorite kite was a Little Sister, made in France by Wolfe Designs as I recall.  It was quite sensitive to subtle inputs, quick, agile, very little pull, clear feedback, sufficiently precise, and very quiet.

I've flown some Talons and own a Mongoose: That description sounds more like a Talon to me.

If you want low wind performance you might also consider an Exile or a Talon UL, both are particularly nice kites.

Where are you? maybe you could get a try of someone else's?
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DonB
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 12:29 AM »


I've flown some Talons and own a Mongoose: That description sounds more like a Talon to me.

If you want low wind performance you might also consider an Exile or a Talon UL, both are particularly nice kites.

Where are you? maybe you could get a try of someone else's?

Thank you for your response Ian.  I am considering the Talon UL based on what I've read about, it's good to hear more positive feedback on it.  I'm on the far south-east coast of Australia in a small town a long ways from any major city so getting a try is unfortunately quite unlikely. 

Don
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inewham
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 01:36 AM »

I'm on the far south-east coast of Australia in a small town a long ways from any major city so getting a try is unfortunately quite unlikely. 

Ah, I can see that you might have a problem there  Smiley

In that case FWIW I doubt you'd be dissapointed with either, both incredibly well made and really nice to fly.

I flew most in the late 90's and both kites have a hint of the way kites flew back then still in them. If you were asking for something like a Nirvana you might be in for a completely different experience but both of these kites shouldn't be too much of a surprise apart from the increase in 'trick abilty'.
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Svolazzo
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 02:28 AM »


BTW, I checked out some K2 vids, nice kite, just not what I had in mind.

Don

May I ask why? I have a K2 STD and Nirvana SE both STD and UL and I have to say that K2 is a great kite slow, tricky, precise, forgiving, for sure at the same level of a Nirvana, maybe a little better IMHO. I never flown a Talon or a Mongoose, I have 2 Mantis STD and UL and one Exile STD. The Talon being smaller should be faster and possibly harder to control for a new flier but it's definately a great kite in the hands of an experienced pilot, the Mantis and Exile are great and well done kites, but K2 is better for the reasons I told, always IMHO.

Paolo
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inewham
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 03:27 AM »

Not answering for Don but from a personal perspective one of the big differences you notice between kites of the 90's (Don's previous experience) and 'Modern' i.e. post Nirvana kites is the way they turn.

Kites used to be called radical as an indication of how fast/tight they'd spin. A kite from that era will perform a fast tight pull turn and can be easily spin stalled. A post Nirvana kite, while it can do a snappy and accurate punch or combo turn typically does a huge pull turn and doesn't spin stall.

If you have flown older kites this can make your first experience of a post Nirvana kite feel a bit underwhelming

Kites that still do tight pull turns and have that 'radical' (in the old sense) feel include the Mamba and Mongoose, both kites Don has enquired about here and elsewhere. The DS and Gemini spin nicely and they're kites that have influenced Mark's design of the Talon.

I didn't watch the whole K2 video, I'm at work but another issue with video of 'modern' kites is simply the fact that people go straight into lots of JLs, yo-yos etc and we never get an impression of what they're like to just fly.
Great for showing how cool your skills are but not so good for conveying an impression of how something just flies (maybe I'm getting old)
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fidelio
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 03:47 AM »

there's nothing which says you can't buy one in the summer and the other in the winter. Smiley

i own a talon ul and have flown the mongoose in light winds a little. i've even had my hands on a little sister but just for a little bit.

the mongoose is likely to be something more of what you'd recognize in terms of flight characteristic. while not my style, every blue moon kite i've ever flown have all shared the same amazing ability to grab onto any little bit of wind and make the most of it. if it flies at all, the sail feels full and playful. the mongoose from the short time i've spent with it, exhibits this behavior. few if any kites simply fly better than a blue moon.

the talon feels smaller on the lines, reacts to changes in direction adeptly, and if you're freestyle minded, a tremendous joy to fly. like a fighter jet, it forsakes utmost efficiency for stunning performance.

since you asked about the differences in how they fly hopefully my description isn't too esoteric but the mongoose feels (to me) to fly around the center of its mass, where the talon flies more towards the wingtips.

if buying both was a possibility the mongoose would be a better bridge from what you know to the talon, rather than the other way round.

tastes differ so the above should be taken as one opinion and nothing more.
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 01:33 PM »

Fidelo

since you asked about the differences in how they fly hopefully my description isn't too esoteric but the mongoose feels (to me) to fly around the center of its mass, where the talon flies more towards the wingtips.


And to throw another little piece of info...

Fidelo, the above comment may now not be sooo accurate, Marks newest Talons (I'm calling it the 2.0) are coming out with 5PT LS's, and I'd say it's enough to move it back to a more 'trad' feel, not as 'Talony' as the earlier version...

Some might say it's evolved (just a little bit Wink)

(Under full disclosure I'm more partial to the 7PT option so I fly the New Talon as a hybrid).


Oh and DonB, believe it or not but there's 6 Talons in the Melbourne area that I know of, if you find yourself down at the big smoke drop me a PM and we'll see what can be done Smiley
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DonB
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 03:40 PM »

I flew most in the late 90's and both kites have a hint of the way kites flew back then still in them. If you were asking for something like a Nirvana you might be in for a completely different experience but both of these kites shouldn't be too much of a surprise apart from the increase in 'trick abilty'.

Not answering for Don but from a personal perspective one of the big differences you notice between kites of the 90's (Don's previous experience) and 'Modern' i.e. post Nirvana kites is the way they turn...

Thanks again Ian, learning a lot from your comments.

May I ask why? ... I have to say that K2 is a great kite slow, tricky, precise, forgiving

Thanks for the comments Paolo,  however I just don't find 'slow' attractive.  The Little Sister was quick, sensitive, and nowhere near as forgiving as my larger kites.  My slower, more forgiving larger kites never came out of the bag as long as there was enough wind for the LS.


there's nothing which says you can't buy one in the summer and the other in the winter. Smiley

I think my bank account would have quite a bit to say about it. Shocked



i own a talon ul and have flown the mongoose in light winds a little. i've even had my hands on a little sister but just for a little bit ... since you asked about the differences in how they fly hopefully my description isn't too esoteric but the mongoose feels (to me) to fly around the center of its mass, where the talon flies more towards the wingtips.

Thanks for the helpful comments Fidelio.  I could say if it's accurate technically but your characterization of the differences makes sense.  In the videos they clearly behave very differently, from what I've seen the aesthetics of the Mongoose's flight are more attractive. 

Fidelo

since you asked about the differences in how they fly hopefully my description isn't too esoteric but the mongoose feels (to me) to fly around the center of its mass, where the talon flies more towards the wingtips.


And to throw another little piece of info...

Fidelo, the above comment may now not be sooo accurate, Marks newest Talons (I'm calling it the 2.0) are coming out with 5PT LS's, and I'd say it's enough to move it back to a more 'trad' feel, not as 'Talony' as the earlier version...

Oh and DonB, believe it or not but there's 6 Talons in the Melbourne area that I know of, if you find yourself down at the big smoke drop me a PM and we'll see what can be done Smiley

Intesting stuff Winterdaze, thank for sharing it.  Do you think the change effects the flight aesthetics or just the feel?  Thanks for the offer on the Talons. I've thought of taking a trip to Sydney or Melbourne (I'm about half way between them near Merimbula) to hopefully sample some goodies.

***


I really appreciate all the replies.  The comments and questions raised have helped to clarify my thoughts.  I've gone back and rewatched the videos on

Cheers,

Don
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