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Author Topic: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?  (Read 3388 times)
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Makalu1
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« on: December 23, 2010, 04:43 PM »

Hi all, new to sport kites and new to this forum, but really liking both!

I'd like to know what people have to say in general about standard versions of kites versus the ultralite versions.  I've been looking at the differences in the gross weight of the kites relative to the other specs given in the sales info.  Near as I can tell, all or most of the specs given for the versions are the same (dimensions, sail material, etc.) except the material of the spars, so I assume the different spar material accounts for the weight difference.  I also notice the weight difference is usually no more than a couple of ounces.

If I've got that right, then I'm assuming the different spar material is what affects the wind range given for the kites (if all other specs are indeed the same), but mostly on the upper end of the wind scale.  As in, the range for the standard version will be given as 3-20mpg, the ultralite at 2-12 mph.  Am I on track here, or is the first syllable of "assume" coming into play here?

More specifically, I'm debating about buying a Skyburner Delta Drive or a Widow Maker.  The WM probably makes the most sense given that it is newer and (according to what I've read elsewhere on this forum) better at doing pitchy tricks.  But honestly, sometimes the intangibles like aesthetics trump reason, so I'm leaning towards an orange DD.  Comparing the two kites in both their standard and ultralite versions, I'm seeing the DD standard billed as 3-25mph, the UL as 1.5-12, weight difference as 10.75oz vs 8.5oz.  The WM standard is billed as 3 (or 4) to 20mph, the UL as 2-12mph, weight difference as 10oz vs 8oz.  Jees, who does someone comes up with figures like 1.5 mph anyway!

So back to the basic question, if I'm right and all else is equal, does 2 ounces of weight difference make that much difference in a kites ability to fly in the lower wind range?         
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Scott Madsen
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 05:11 PM »

It does make a big difference (along with the framing) - it can change the whole nature of the kite.  In general, you are best off with the standard if you have the min wind covered, especially for tricks, since it will likely pitch much more easily and faster.  The again, some UL versions of a specific kite are preferred over the standard even in the 3-8 category which is where many can overlap, so no hard and fast rules.

I've flown both the WM standard and ul and preferred the standard all around, even in low wind - its just more pitchy. The WM standard goes pretty low as it is.   I  can't recall having tried the delta drive.
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Dave Gibson
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 08:51 PM »

Hello and welcome to the board Grin   I have and fly all  3  the delta is a nice precision kite and tricks. but i find it alittle more finicky,  the WM STD tricks great and flys realy nice!! same for the UL But the STD does respond a little faster!  were do you fly? and what type of wind do you have most of the time? if your wind is 0-4 mph most of the time, I would bye  the UL, you will get more fly time with less frustration. I live in michigan and the wind for the most part is 0-3 most of the time so my WM UL gets alot of use!! 4-12  the WM STD is GREAT you can fly the STD 2-3 but you are going to be working for it....   I LOVE THE WIDOW MAKERS  great kites Jon realy makes GREAT kite's.
you cant go rong with  A SKYBURNER KITE.

Hope this helps 
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Makalu1
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 12:26 AM »

Thanks Dave and Tpatter.  Wow, I can see why folks own so many kites!- this hobby is gonna get expensive after a while!  Regarding the WM, must be a great kite because I've only seen one sort of bad (more like neutral) review of it by anyone so far, mostly raves. 

Do you happen to know what factors add up to a kite that pitches better?  I've read that the newer kites ("new style" flying?) tend to be better in that regard.   

I'm going to have to give some serious thought to aesthetics vs the practical, though you've both pretty much sold me on going with a UL.  Here in Salt Lake City vicinity the winds (outside of the seasonal spring winds) tend to be pretty weak, though I've only lived here for 2 years and have only been wind conscious since I took up kites last last August.  Maybe I'll see what I can learn looking up the weather records on weatherunderground before deciding.  But from what I've seen, 0 - 4 or 5 seems most common.

Thanks again, and I look forward to any other input, especially re the Delta Drive.  And Merry Christmas to all!
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Scott Madsen
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 04:30 AM »



So back to the basic question, if I'm right and all else is equal, does 2 ounces of weight difference make that much difference in a kites ability to fly in the lower wind range?         
[/quote]

Welcome to the world of Stunt Kiting.
 2 ounces is a lot of weight, that can change the way a stunt kite flies.  Here we talk in terms of GRAMS ,as you will soon find out.
I have changed the lower spreaders of my kite from a 5pt to  3pt, removed the upper spreader and have been able to fly at a lower wind speed ,when before it would have been difficult to fly.
 
Smooth and gentle winds ,  and a MERRY CHRISTMAS to all .........
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mikenchico
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 07:55 AM »

10 to 8 oz is a 20% difference which is huge when talking about wing loading, there are a few other changes in UL, the leading edge material is usually a lighter fabric. the nose may be made of lighter fabrics and some reinforcements may be reduced also.

I agree the looks of the Delta Drive trump the Widowmaker, it's been one of my favorite designs since seeing the first one and I like the kite a lot. But the Widowmakers see much more air time. Not because they are better kites just different, more capable of helping me in my quest to learn some of these pitch tricks, if I was just flying old school it would be the Delta Drive first out of the bag.

As stated above the standard Widowmaker will go pretty low, I pull the weight and upper spreader and fly it down to the range others are flying UL's with a bit of work.  I wasn't overly fond of the UL version of the Widowmaker when I tried Denny's out but I didn't spend much time on it and I'm not a finese flier and like those nice stiff Nitro's and haven't liked any light version of a kite I originally tried with Nitro's. I haven't tried my standard Delta Drive in real low winds so I can't say how it does.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 08:48 AM by mikenchico » Logged

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onlye
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 12:59 PM »

sometimes the intangibles like aesthetics trump reason, so I'm leaning towards an orange DD. who does someone comes up with figures like 1.5 mph anyway!

Aesthetics - been a great influence in my kite purchases over the years.  I have a DD UL that doesn't fly much but one of my favorite kites based on appearance.  Does fly pretty nice too.
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eric
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and still can't fly like those darn videos
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 03:31 PM »

Specifically with the Widowmaker...

The standard goes very low in the wind range compared to other "standards".  The UL goes even lower, but you lose the pitchability of the standard, so yo-yo/roll up manoeuvres are much harder on the UL.  Same thing happens with the Blue Moon Exile.

If roll ups are something you want to retain in a low wind kite, do your homework first.  Not many UL kites roll up anywhere near as easily as their standard counterparts.  If you don't do those sort of tricks, the ULs are significantly easier to fly in the lighter winds and well worth the investment
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Kevin Sanders

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Allen Carter
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2010, 10:13 PM »

When looking at the wind ranges keep in mind that at the low end things change really quick. 4mph is twice the force on the kite as 2mph. Big difference. The same way 16 mph is twice the force of 8 mph.

The difference in 1 or 2 mph at the high end is nothing. at the low end it's huge.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
DonB
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 11:54 PM »

When looking at the wind ranges keep in mind that at the low end things change really quick. 4mph is twice the force on the kite as 2mph. Big difference. The same way 16 mph is twice the force of 8 mph.

The difference in 1 or 2 mph at the high end is nothing. at the low end it's huge.


I believe the force increases by the square of the wind velocity so at 2mph the force is 4 times the force at 1mph.  The force of a 4mph wind would be 16x that of 1mph.

The Wind Load Formula is



where
Fd is the force of drag (or in this case Force Against the flat plate),
p is the density of the air,
v is the speed of the air against the object,
A is the area of the object which the air is blowing against,
Cd is the drag coefficient,

Note that in the formula the speed factor 'v' is squared which results in the exponential increase of force.

From  http://www.reasonablepower.com/nice_to_know/an_introduction_to_wind_loads.htm

As you pointed out, at high speeds the difference in force isn't as dramatic for a 1mph change in speed.  For example the difference in force between 20mph and 21mph is only 10%.

FWIW,

db

« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:10 AM by DonB » Logged
DWayne
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« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 02:05 PM »

Your formula is good for calculating the torque created by a flat rigid surface at a given wind speed. Not sure of its relevance in sport kites though.
@ Makalu1
Newer designs are using shapes that create more lift in the nose making it possible to reduce the amount of tail weight without losing any of the ability to rotate on the horizontal axis. The added nose lift and lessened tail weight also allow these kites to do much flatter rotations on the vertical axis than earlier polyvalent kites. These designs allow the UL versions to do all the same tricks their standard counterparts do only in less wind. IMO the glaring differences between Std's. & UL's are rapidly disappearing.

Denny

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DonB
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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 02:15 PM »

Your formula is good for calculating the torque created by a flat rigid surface at a given wind speed. Not sure of its relevance in sport kites though.

The relevant part is that the force increases with the square of  wind speed,  this is the same for wind striking any surface.
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Makalu1
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 04:19 PM »

Thanks again, all of you.  I'm soaking this all up like a sponge and appreciate your time, effort, and willingness to share with a beginner.  It's not wasted on me!

Just got back from an hour with my 3-D and must say I hate the way those blasted standoffs poke out of the edge of the sail.  I'm sure in capable hands this isn't so much of a problem but it's sure a pain for a tangle-prone guy like me!  But I am getting much satisfaction and getting more air time in low winds after learning how to adjust the bridle and standoffs a bit.  I've also experimented with taking out the upper spreader.

Speaking of which, tempest, what are you referring to when you say you're changing the lower spreaders from a 5pt to a 3pt?  I'm not yet familiar with these terms.

Again, thanks much!
Scott
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Scott Madsen
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 10:08 PM »

They're different strength spreaders (tubes).
Look at the skyshark website for more info.  Smiley
Both skyburner/shark are on the right of this page.

There are a lot of different spreaders. Weight, stiffness, etc all are labeled with different numbers.
They're labeled differently, usually the higher the # the stronger and heavier the rod is.

Look around some websites. It's certainly worth it!  Smiley
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-Devin Cobleigh-Morrison
Bob D
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2010, 06:16 AM »

The Widow Maker hands out tricks faster than a lot of other kites. It's so easy that I'm afraid that I'll learn bad habits because it's so easy to fly. One thing I like about it is the pig tails you can adjust for your wind speeds. It REALLY does fly in lower wind than a lot of standards and you don't sacrifice anything in the upper range. (My Exile flies great in lower wind too but it's a lot harder to fly at a wind speed the WM is still comfortable with.)

My vote is for the WM.

(I've been flying my Nirvanas because  they're more demanding and I'm forced to learn good flying technique. I also really like the sail layout too.)
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Bob D.
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