GWTW Forum
September 30, 2014, 01:26 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: B'zar 2011  (Read 11020 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Svolazzo
Trade Count: (+20)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 193


Location: Sarzana - Italia

« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 09:55 AM »

Werner, can you tell us the advantages of making the broadseamings you introduced in the new B'zar and how that increased volume and internal chamber will affect the flight?

Paolo
Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 02:45 AM »

The comments that will follow are not scientifically proved, these are just the results of some experiments with broadseaming combined with the experience of kitebuilding for 15 years now. It is rather complex to understand what the effects are of adding volume in some parts of a kitesail.
Generally the more billow you have the more lift is created in that part of the sail. Depending on which part of the sail we are talking about the effects will be different. In the nose section more billow means more lift that is more tracking capabilities, more precision, more tension and respons on the lines in normal flight.
When in a fade this extra cloth will invert and form a billow that helps to hold the fade, easier backspins, backspincascades etc...
For pitchcontrolled moves I can't say if there is an advantage. I think much depends on the depth of that billow, here is some work to do.
When the kite does a lazy suzan this nose-billow will act aerodynamically and will pull the nose down, pulling the kite in an even deeper backflip
All these effects are known by a lot of kitebuilders and most of them will use the curve of the leading edge to induce a billow in the nose. Even in some older designs as the Aeri FX and the Matrix  the billow was a combination of broadseaming and external cambering.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 02:46 AM by werner » Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 04:17 AM »

As a complement of the message above I would say that broadseaming locks the billow on a particular place in the sail. So if you adapt the panellayout to the sections that are involved you can create an accurate billow in a specific area. This billow will be independant of for example wingtiptensioning or frame deformation. Using external cambering via a curve on the leading edge or spine will lead to a billow that is situated in the proximity of this frame-elements. So if you like to have it in the middle of the sailsurface than this broadseaming is an intresting solution.

In flight you can usually feel this extra lift as an extension of windrange in the lower windspeeds, a feeling of aerodynamical efficiency because the kite picks up every little bit of wind and transforms it into power. 
Logged
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2011, 05:09 PM »

Hey Werner nice info in your last post thanks.  I get a bit confused though because it seems some kite makers equate billow with sail depth. HOw do you differentiate between the two and which do you prefer to use?
Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 09:12 AM »

I tried to look this up and indeed the word billow as a noun is not that common. I think 3 dimensional sail depth would be better.
Logged
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2011, 12:43 PM »

I tried to look this up and indeed the word billow as a noun is not that common. I think 3 dimensional sail depth would be better.
  That might work.  From what I have read sail depth is supposed to refer to the amount the sail is pushed out by the standoffs and billow is suposed to refer to how much the sail is allowed to be formed by wind pressure to create the desired aero foil shape.  I have a kite that has a lot of billow from LS to nose and somewhat centered on the wing as well as a deep sail TE profile and it really seems to be a slug in performance.  Weak turtle based tricks(needs to back flip 130deg to get into a turtle and falls out easily without inputs), slow speed and needs easily 4 mph over its stated low wind range just to fly reliably. Have you experienced this in any stages of your designs and is there any way to adjust the billow/sail depth after the kite is made without redoing the sail?
Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2011, 04:01 AM »

There is not one truth in this context. Without pictures and/ or a video of your kite I can't do any suggestions.
Nevertheless, adjusting the sail depth is fairly simple by increasing the aspect-ratio You can do this by shifting the center T to a higher position Then you adjust the LS connectors in order to have the LS horizontal again.   
Logged
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2011, 06:26 PM »

There is not one truth in this context. Without pictures and/ or a video of your kite I can't do any suggestions.
Nevertheless, adjusting the sail depth is fairly simple by increasing the aspect-ratio You can do this by shifting the center T to a higher position Then you adjust the LS connectors in order to have the LS horizontal again.   
  THANKS  I have a couple old beginner kites I'm going to tinker on before I start tweaking the higher end kite I have in mind.
Logged
cojack_2107
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43

Location:

« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 05:49 AM »

Any news or update yet on the B'zar?? Can't wait to know how it goes or when it will go public.   Grin
Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 09:01 AM »

I just did some testflying on the 2011. I know now for sure that a leechline is important and also the tension on it. It seems to me that a tension that gives a light buzz in sharp corners is ideal. Straight forward flight is silent. I also shortened the length of the outer standoff with 2 mm and played with tailweight to tune the tazz-ability. At last I tried to make the 2011 more pitchy for easy yoyo and yofades by adjusting the bridle. I need just one testflight to be sure and than it will be released!!
Logged
cojack_2107
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 43

Location:

« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2011, 09:25 AM »

take your time mate... hopefully it turns out great for you.
Logged
sugarbaker
Trade Count: (+7)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 08:44 PM »

I will admit that I am like a kid at Christmas with anticipation for the new plans. 
Logged
werner
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38

Location:

« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2011, 06:02 AM »

Latest test resulted in the final settings of standoffs and bridle!! Btw it has become a crossed activated bridle kind a gemini UL. I hope to put a short video on this forum later this week. Everything will be prepared to release in the next week.
Logged
sugarbaker
Trade Count: (+7)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2011, 06:56 AM »

can't wait.  too bad I'm moving to a new place over the next couple weeks... all kite making is on hold til middle of March.  I'm happy to know that plans are on their way! 
Logged
thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3613


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2011, 08:35 AM »

sb: think of your hiatus as the perfect amount of time for someone else to try the first build..and if they find errors it is not your Icky you lose out on!
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!