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Author Topic: True wind range of quads?  (Read 3958 times)
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timothymcmackin
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« on: February 13, 2011, 06:34 PM »

Hi, all. I'm an intermediate 2-line flyer, and today I made the mistake of getting a 30-minute lesson from an experienced quad-line flyer on his equally "experienced" stack of a small Rev and large Rev. (He said that all the cool kids were doing it.  Cool) He loves his mid-vent B-series Rev, so next time I get the chance I'm going to ask for a few minutes on it, too.

The big question in my head is about the true wind range of quads. I'm just getting into freestyle with 2-line kites, and it's taught me that the stated wind range of a dualie is a lot like the "sleeps 4" rating number on my camping tents: it applies only in perfect conditions (that is, short, skinny people who are comfortable sleeping in each other's arms). I was flying a mid-quality 2-line kite rated 3-25 mph today, but I found it very difficult to do even my basic freestyle moves in the 15mph wind. Still fun to fly, just very challenging for tricking. It's also taken a lot of practice to fly at the low end of kites' ranges, of course.

I really enjoy what I'm learning with my 2-lines in winds up to about 12 mph, but I'm considering switching to quads when the wind gets higher than that, rather than buying a bunch of vented 2-lines. (I have to deal with a variety of wind conditions: high speed, low speed, smooth, choppy, so "what wind speed do you fly in" is a complicated question.) My "dealer" today led me to believe that I wouldn't need a big pile of quads because the effective/tricking range of quads is generally larger than that of 2-lines. I was looking at the B-series on the Rev site, and I was surprised to find out that it does not spell out the recommended wind ranges for the std/mid-vent/full-vent. I'm interested in precision and tricks, not speed or power, and I'm willing to save up and invest some extra money in a quality kite that I will fly for a long time.

Bottom line: what's the true wind range of mid-to-high-end quad line stunters (Rev B-series std/mid-vent/full-vent, and others that you might recommend)? How much skill does it take to fly them at the bottom of the stated wind range? At what wind range do they perform the best? How much does swapping out the frame really expand the range?

Thanks,

Tim
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:54 PM by timothymcmackin » Logged
lylenc
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 09:02 PM »

From the Rev site's products tab:

Standard Barresi 1.5

Wind Range:   
3-10 mph (2 wrap frame)
4-16 mph (3 wrap frame)
6-20 mph (3 wrap frame w/2 wrap LE added)
Wing Span:   91"
Frame(s):   
2-wrap 1/4" spars
3-wrap 1/4" spars

Vented Barresi 1.5

Wind Range:   
5-20 mph (3 wrap frame included)
6-30 mph (4 wrap frame included)
10-45 mph (4 wrap frame w/3 wrap LE added)
Wing Span:   91"
Frame(s):   4-wrap 1/4" spars

Don't know the wind range differences for mid-vent and extra-vent, but they are probably splitting the differences above +/- somewhat. Just like dual line kites, you won't be doing slack line tricks at the top end of the wind ranges, but you can still do all the inverted/horizontal/vertical flying the entire ranges.

If you don't like a lot of pull, the Rev II is sweet for flying in high winds, with less pull, but it's fast and twitchy. Those are good things for my flying style.

If you prefer more precision and team flying, the new B-Rev II may be better than the old version. I don't think I'll add the B-Rev II, since part of the charm of a II is being fast and twitchy. Others may prefer fast and mellow.

The Rev II can be handled well, with experience, to about 25 and probably higher, but the pull is starting to increase. Due to physical limitations on amount of pull I can tolerate, I added the vented and start using it at about 20 mph. I've flown the Vented Rev II in 35 mph and maintained control, and it probably can go higher too. 

« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 09:24 PM by lylenc » Logged

Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
Smeagol
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 10:27 PM »

There's also the Rev 1.5 SUL, which is rated at 0-10 MPH I believe on the Rev site.  I haven't had the chance to try one yet, but will here fairly soon as I've recently added one to the collection.  I've also heard the B series is very good in lower winds, but can't confirm as I don't have one.  If you have a wide wind range most seem to recommend one of the vented B series.

I had my progressive stack out a couple weeks back when it was probably 10-15 mph, man did that pull.  It was close to the pull of my Super Blast (2-4) only with less "off" w/the brakes.  What a workout.

If you really want fast & twitchy try a SuperSonic in 20 MPH, heh.
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Windbag
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 11:06 PM »


Bottom line: what's the true wind range of mid-to-high-end quad line stunters (Rev B-series std/mid-vent/full-vent, and others that you might recommend)? How much skill does it take to fly them at the bottom of the stated wind range? At what wind range do they perform the best? How much does swapping out the frame really expand the range?

Thanks,

Tim

Tim, I have a standard B series full sail and a B full vent. I've been flying about 1 1/2 years & have taken a few clinics from Iquad. The full sail for me flies best from about 5 - 10 mph. Below 5 it's a lot of work trying to keep the kite in the air. Over 10 the kite gets really twitchy & hard to control. My full vent is very nice starting about 8 and up to 20. Over 20 the flying isn't much fun as too much pull & blowing sand on the beach.

I bought a set of race rods to try to fly in 3-4 mph. They help a little but I still don't have the skills to fly that low. Iquad makes it look easy at 3 mph. I normally fly 3 wrap in the full sail & 4 wrap rods in the full vent. I've only doubled up the 3 & 4 wrap rods in the leading edge one time. Iquad was teaching a clinic at Long Beach, 25 - 30 mph, full rain gear. Not fun -- we quit after 1/2 hour.

If you plan to fly dual until the wind gets to 10+ then the full vent is your best choice. The full vent really doesn't want to fly at 5 mph.

Have fun with your toys, Ray.
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Have fun,

Ray
tpatter
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 12:24 AM »

Dual line tricks are all about slack - one line, both lines, timed slack on one then the other.  You need slack in both 1mph and 20 in order to tricks. In higher wind, the kite moves faster so you compensate by using longer lines and moving faster yourself.

With Quads, you generally you have no slack - the lines are taut all the time. I have seen folks do some slack-line tricks on them, but it is quite the exception.  They are all about complete control and precise positioning and movement of the kite fast or slow.

If you can handle the pull as you maneuver it, the kite remains pretty stable.  Since you can easily change its angle into the wind, you have a large degree of control for both speed and pull of the kite. 

In general, I'd say that a fully vented Rev will more easily fly in higher wind than a fully vented dual line for most flyers.  I've flown my Rev 1.5 vent sle in ~28-30mph on 80 foot lines and was able to control the kite reasonably well and I am really just a Rev newb at this point.
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6 kite tom
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 03:42 AM »

The Guildworks series are different....because they are built in the design fashion of tenesegrity they can withstand a lot more abuse...both from the wind and from lawn darting....i have only ever seen a Deca break once while flying and that was because i was flying it in too much wind with a cracked bow rod....all of the other decas I have ever fixed were due to assembly error (or a physical impact like a car door to the wrapped bag)....

Great Deca: indoors - 10
Zerowind: indoors -14 (supplemental bow rod for above 7)
affordable 1 (a1): 6 - 35
A1 urban: 3 - 20
Deca 1: 5 - 25
Deca 6: 6 - 30
Deca 15: 4 - 18
Deca 31: 2 - 18
Minergy: 6 - 18
Zerowind Minergy: indoor - 10

of course the kites that can fly indoors are going to need more work as you are constantly providing motion against the kite (either by walking backwards or pulling the kite in that direction with your arms....
The Deca 31 flys better backwards in the lowest of winds than it does forwards....the sail seems to be more efficient in that matter...

Two of the guildworks kites i would recommend you grab when/if you can are a Zerowind (NOT the great) and the a1....both of these kites will have lower prices than the others and between these two you have a full range of wind....a FULL range.....

The most noticeable thing about flying decas in lower winds that gets quad fliers is that they forget that a decas handles are parallel to the kite...they are flat...there is no forward kick to the handles...that is because the sail is 3 dimensional it already has the forward drive designed in....so fliers who are used to flying a rev in lower winds almost always apply too much top line....and then the deca flops forwards and rides it lines down to the ground.....

Good to see you still trying new stuff Tommy!!!! careful these quad things are addictive!
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Bob D
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 05:04 AM »

I've been flying Revs for a long time but I mostly fly duals because I just like them more. So I've got a lot of experience with them but nearly good enough to fly in groups. My utility Rev is the Rev I standard and vented. I fly the Rev I standard in conditions where you can feel the wind on the back of your neck. (That's probably below 10 mph and more than 5 or 6 mph.) The vent comes out when the flags are really flying - probably over 11 or 12 mph..

My special occasion Rev is the B Series mid-vent with race rods. Now that's a smooth kite! It will fly down to the same wind speed range as the Rev I standard - about 6-7 mph and it handles the upper range of the standard or better. Another nice feature is that it DOES smooth out bumpy wind. You can also reinforce the race rods with a 3 wrap though I haven't done that though. I also have a vented B Series that hasn't been flown yet because the mid vent does such a nice job in the range that I fly in. (I haven't flown in 15+ because I'm mostly afraid of breaking something when it's really blowing hard and those speeds are getting a little ballistic for me.)
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Bob D.
lylenc
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 08:47 AM »

"If you really want fast & twitchy try a SuperSonic in 20 MPH, heh."

Yep, Supersonic is fun, fast, and twitchy. It generates more pull than I can tolerate at the upper wind levels, but the inverted side slides inches off the ground are worth the pain for short periods of time. Freaking awesome, they are.
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Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
timothymcmackin
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 10:21 AM »

Craig, I'd skimmed the wind ratings for the vented B while looking for info on the mid-vent, but with a wind range starting at 5 mph, I assumed that it was a typo or that they copied the page over from the standard and forgot to change the numbers. A fully vented kite that can fly at 5 mph? Sounded too good to be true. I'm tempted to go full vent because then (combined with my lower-wind 2-lines) I'd have a kite for pretty much any flyable wind range. But it would also mean not having the choice of that kite quite as often. If the mid-vent can go up to 20 mph with the right frame, and maybe survive a gust to 25, I'll probably get more use out of it.

Ray, thanks for the info about swapping to race rods. Sounds like they buy you a few extra mph in the low range, but are no replacement for low-wind flying skills. Between what you and what Bob D say, if I go with a mid-vent, I bet the race rods would help me fly in winds I would normally fly 2-lines. Might be worth the investment.

Wow, thief, those Guildworks quads sure are eye-catching. Maybe someday I'll hunt one down. Right now, I'd just look like a clown with way more kite than he knows how to fly.

Thanks for the advice, all. Before I jump in, are there any other recommendations for a quad that fits the rough model of the B-series mid vent: flyable from about 8 to 20 (with the right frame), performing well around 12-15 mph, built for precision, not too fast or too powerful?
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RobB
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 10:33 AM »

Hey there...
I just got a full vent B-series to fly when the winds go over 15mph, and duals aren't fun to fly anymore. It did a great job of keeping me out on the beach when I normally would've gone home this weekend. The winds were 15-25mph, and I was having a great time with it. Any of my vented dual lines would've been overpowered by that wind, except maybe the QPro VV. Not that I could trick it very much in those winds, but it used to be my only alternative.
So, your thinking is right, I think, get a vented Rev.
~Rob.
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Smeagol
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 05:36 PM »

I really want to try a B series.  I'm thinking of splurging on the new B 2 series, has anyone tried one yet?  Seems to be getting fairly good reviews so far.  Not sure what the wind range is on the standard though.

Here's a photo of my progressive stack.  Seems like it took ages to make all those trainlines.

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REVflyer
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 04:23 AM »

I really want to try a B series.  I'm thinking of splurging on the new B 2 series, has anyone tried one yet?  Seems to be getting fairly good reviews so far.  Not sure what the wind range is on the standard though.

Here's a photo of my progressive stack.  Seems like it took ages to make all those trainlines.

The B-2 is a great kite, I flew it at Treasure Island on 80 foot lines.  I could easily axel and flick it inside out.  The first 2 efforts at throw & catch were perfectly successful.  I was offered a great deal on 2 of 'em, line and handles but I have so many Revs already.  I wanted to sell my two old ones and get the newer style, but in my colors and made slightly off of the approved standard.

Wind range of 5 to 20 mph without extraordinary efforts

Is this the kite for you?  If you want something you can thrash around without any pull, then probably yes.  You can fly it precisely, but that's not what it is all about.  It does a double axel almost easier than once around!  Flick-flaks are also effortless as the sail is less tall so it rotates (inverts) and returns very rapidly.

I have many more hours on the 1point5 platform.  It has the best of everything, most of the speed of the Rev2 and most of the precision from the Rev1.  It can be built for no-wind, up to when the porta-potties are blowing over.  Imagine a set of custom matched golf clubs.  You may play 18 holes and never once hit your 8-iron, but you carry one!  It's not that different between your 7 and 9 iron.  You could work around it, if you lost it on the course.  The point is, you carry it whether or not you use it.  Well with the 1.5 platform you're offered that same set of matched products.  Each is slightly different, none are required, but boy someday you'll reach in that bag and hit a perfect 8-iron!

You can switch the frames around, use other manufacturer's products, experiment confidently, as the whole sail is basically straight lines and the bridles can be replaced with several proven choices. 

I live in the land of no wind (Washington DC) so I've got many thousands of hours of practice in these conditions.  In fact I prefer a dead calm, early morning sunrise to almost anything else. 

You sound convinced that you'll continue to fly your dualies and only use a vented B-Series for the bigger wind conditions.  My guess is you'll cross-over to the dark side entirely!  Revs are so much more social.  You gather a crowd and pretty soon they'll be revolution kite owners themselves.

Buy a vented B-series with a race frame,... or consider acquiring a B-series Pro full vent.  Yes you are spending more money.  But wouldn't you be more comfortable playing tiger woods' clubs, even if you didn't have his swing? 

At least you'd know the equipment is the best money can buy.  It flies better,... enough that I sold most of my B-Series and bought the Pros instead.  Yes I could instantly feel the difference and approached the comparison with skeptism about a new marketing proposal as opposed to huge improvement on a product I already enjoyed. 
(A bus will get you downtown, somehow Mercedes continues to sell vehicles though!)

Do you need a Pro?  Nope! 
But you can bet it's so super you deserve it anyway.  Imagine if you were an expert kite builder, recognized thru awards and your peers.  Well if you built a Rev all for yourself, you'd buy any component regardless of cost.  You'd use the best construction techniques and spend hours of time on the design before even starting the project.  You'd angle every piece of fabric for maximum stretch performance and a long life expectancy.  You fold-under and seal all the edges, reinforcing the trailing edge so it knifes thru the wind in reverse, instead of just backing up.  Nothing would be too much trouble, you'd wait for it to be finished because it was hand-made by a dedicated craftsman YOU! 

Guess what?  You can get Bazzer (Barry Poulter) to do that kite-building for you and you alone.  He's so good a bunch of expert builders in my local club have retired their templates.  We have Bazzer make our kites now because he can do it just like you'd do it yourself!  Nothing is too much trouble and no materials are too expensive.  You order it with the frame of your choice, naturally.  The green Race Frame might be an excellent consideration for your full vent Pro, sir.  You can order it in any of a number of most excellent color patterns.  There's even a visual aid on the Revolution web-site, a colorizer so you can waste hours playing with your design.

Eventually you will cross-over to the dark side totally, they are very addictive and no help program exists which can cure you.

WOW is doing a low-wind Rev clinic on the outer banks of North Carolina this weekend.  If anyone lives nearby or would consider driving there, we had a cancellation yesterday,... send me a private email and I can give you more details.
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Jim Foster
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 05:18 PM »

Rev has kites that fly from zero wind to as high as you have lines, arms, shoulders, foot hold and desire.

For us, when the sand is blowing across the sand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we're done.  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 06:05 PM »

From my experience....

This is for a beginner to average pilot in winds that are mostly smooth with very few gusts and small changes.  The frames mentioned are the standard 1/4" frames.  The SLE frame will be heavier and have different wind ranges.

Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 2 wrap frame
      3-4 mph to 7 mph
Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 3 wrap frame
      5 mph to 14 mph
Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 4 wrap frame
      8 mph to 18 mph

Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/ 2 wrap frame
      5 mph to 12 mph
Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/3 wrap frame
      7 mph to 15 mph
Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/ 4 wrap frame
      9 mph to 20 mph

Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 2 wrap frame
      8 mph to 16 mph
Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 3 wrap frame
      10 mph to 22 mph
Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 4 wrap frame
      12 mph to 30 mph

Again this is for beginner to intermediate pilot in average winds.  As your skills grow, so will the usable wind range that you can fly in.  For instance, a very skilled pilot in light wind control with perfect winds can probably use the full vented kite with 2 wrap frame down to 5-6 mph. It isn't optimum, but possible.  Personally if I have winds from 4 mph to 10 mph I tend to fly my duals.  When the winds get over 10 mph, I fly my Rev's, if its 15 mph or more I fly the full vent and have a blast.  The B-Series is a nicer flying kite than the 1.5 or EXP.  Part of this reason is because the B-Series sail is Icarex which is lighter and the other part is that even though the sails are similar in size, the way they are made is different which helps the B-Series have better overall control and better light wind flight.  Plus the addition of two frames in the B-Series makes it a very nice kite for a little more money.

The above numbers are what I would consider more "Real Life" numbers.  Each area will have different results and also the skill of the pilot can change the above numbers severely.

Personally if you want to cover the largest wind range, then the only two Rev's you really need is a standard sail and a full vent.  The Mid Vent was designed for those pilots who will never see winds above 20 mph, but do have many days with winds in the 10-14 mph range.  In those winds, the Mid Vent is a dream to fly where the Full Vent can be a bit of work to keep in the air and the standard sail starts to get a little more aggressive.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:09 PM by Gamelord » Logged

Beaufort
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2011, 01:08 AM »

From my experience....

This is for a beginner to average pilot in winds that are mostly smooth with very few gusts and small changes.  The frames mentioned are the standard 1/4" frames.  The SLE frame will be heavier and have different wind ranges.

Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 2 wrap frame
      3-4 mph to 7 mph
Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 3 wrap frame
      5 mph to 14 mph
Standard 1.5 or B-Series w/ 4 wrap frame
      8 mph to 18 mph

Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/ 2 wrap frame
      5 mph to 12 mph
Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/3 wrap frame
      7 mph to 15 mph
Mid Vent 1.5 or B w/ 4 wrap frame
      9 mph to 20 mph

Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 2 wrap frame
      8 mph to 16 mph
Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 3 wrap frame
      10 mph to 22 mph
Full Vent 1.5 or B w/ 4 wrap frame
      12 mph to 30 mph

Again this is for beginner to intermediate pilot in average winds.  As your skills grow, so will the usable wind range that you can fly in.  For instance, a very skilled pilot in light wind control with perfect winds can probably use the full vented kite with 2 wrap frame down to 5-6 mph. It isn't optimum, but possible.  Personally if I have winds from 4 mph to 10 mph I tend to fly my duals.  When the winds get over 10 mph, I fly my Rev's, if its 15 mph or more I fly the full vent and have a blast.  The B-Series is a nicer flying kite than the 1.5 or EXP.  Part of this reason is because the B-Series sail is Icarex which is lighter and the other part is that even though the sails are similar in size, the way they are made is different which helps the B-Series have better overall control and better light wind flight.  Plus the addition of two frames in the B-Series makes it a very nice kite for a little more money.

The above numbers are what I would consider more "Real Life" numbers.  Each area will have different results and also the skill of the pilot can change the above numbers severely.

Personally if you want to cover the largest wind range, then the only two Rev's you really need is a standard sail and a full vent.  The Mid Vent was designed for those pilots who will never see winds above 20 mph, but do have many days with winds in the 10-14 mph range.  In those winds, the Mid Vent is a dream to fly where the Full Vent can be a bit of work to keep in the air and the standard sail starts to get a little more aggressive.

Hope this helps.

I would just like to add, that the above low end for both the std. and especially the full vented are very conservative. Personally, I was very amazed on how wide a wind range the full vented can cover (6-7 mph is not hard on the low end given steady winds) and very nice to fly in higher winds, and the std. will perfom like a dual line UL/SUL with 2 wraps in it. Amazing kites ;-)
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