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Author Topic: I'm stuck on Snap Pancake, Half Axel & Flapjack. Need suggestions.  (Read 1443 times)
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mnkypkl
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« on: March 26, 2011, 01:52 PM »

I'm using Dodd Gross's video to learn to fly and I'm on the Snap Stall group & the Axel group. I have found that I like to work on two or three tricks at a time to keep the variety in flying. I seem to be stuck. When Dodd shows the Snap Pancake on his video he does it quite fast. I have watched several times but I just don't get it. Is this an important trick to know and if so any suggestions. I miss the sequence of the snap, etc.

I have done several Half Axels the last few times out and now need to get smoother. This weekend the wind is stronger (10-14mph) and I have no chance. If I try to strengthen my snap I pull the kite out of it's flight and it does really strange things. Too soft and no go.

Third, I thought I had the Flapjack down and with stronger wind I can't get the kite to flop over on its back on the initial tug. Suggestions for stronger wind?I tried giving slack faster, even running toward the kite.

Thanks,
Kevin
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freecheese
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2011, 02:21 PM »

Regarding the half axel, your off hand is probably the culprit. Your input hand starts the move, but your off hand controls the kite after the main input. With a weighted, pitchy kite in particular, I don't throw slack with my off hand, but instead let the bottom wing out (does that make sense?). You have to manage that tension or the kite will go nose high and do some potentially wonky stuff, most likely falling out of the sky at this point.



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Allen Carter
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2011, 02:29 PM »

I don't normally hear the term "snap pancake". Must be a Dodd thing. Some kites pancake faster/easier than others, but if you are in strong wind it can take a lot of forward movement to get the kite to go under. The snap part part might be referring to a technique that works with some kites where you initiate the pancake with a firm pull before you give slack, especially in lighter wind this can make things look snappier. You are really just powering up the kite, as if it were in stronger wind.

The half axel is a good trick in strong wind, but getting the kite to stop flying and flip around takes firm, quick inputs. Hand speed is key.

Flapjacks are hard in strong wind with regular kites. Some small, high wind kites make it easier, but the timing is really tough. Be ready to break sticks.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
Ca Ike
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 03:20 PM »

I'm using Dodd Gross's video to learn to fly and I'm on the Snap Stall group & the Axel group. I have found that I like to work on two or three tricks at a time to keep the variety in flying. I seem to be stuck. When Dodd shows the Snap Pancake on his video he does it quite fast. I have watched several times but I just don't get it. Is this an important trick to know and if so any suggestions. I miss the sequence of the snap, etc.

I have done several Half Axels the last few times out and now need to get smoother. This weekend the wind is stronger (10-14mph) and I have no chance. If I try to strengthen my snap I pull the kite out of it's flight and it does really strange things. Too soft and no go.

Third, I thought I had the Flapjack down and with stronger wind I can't get the kite to flop over on its back on the initial tug. Suggestions for stronger wind?I tried giving slack faster, even running toward the kite.

Thanks,
Kevin

First question is what kite are you using?  Kites tend to differ on inputs and Dodd G's kites that I have flown are quite different from anything else I have tried.  THe snap pancake is a Dodd thing but its basically the same inputs as a backflip just a quick snap of the wrists before throwing slack for the flare.  IT makes the flare sharper but if you miss the timing you end up in a hard lawn dart so its best to first try it high in the window so you have room to recover.

Flap jack in high winds isn't that hard at all. The higher the wind gets the quicker you need to be on the initial launch input/slack timing.  Again think backflip input timing here since thats basically what the first step is.

Were not that far apart so PM me if you want to meet up and I can try and help you out in person.
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fidelio
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 03:25 PM »

master flyers excepted, the wind conditions will often change the difficulty of particular tricks. as you progress you'll learn which tricks, in which wind conditions, are struggles for you personally. ie. for me, light wind cometes and high wind jacobs ladders are more difficult with lower success rates than the reverse.

this is mentionable because as wind speed increases the flapjack which you referenced would likely be more difficult for everyone  given the quickness of the trick, the amount of slack required, and the close proximity to the ground. so for me, when the wind picks up, i'd usually substitute the flapjack for something like a reverse coin toss which would be more agreeable with the conditions.

to agree with freecheese, the amount of offhand slack required for a half axel is key, and often overlooked.
to agree with allen, snap pancake? a pancake isn't a position which can be held like a fade or a turtle so to me, they're all snappy.

hopefully others will chime in as well as many more authoritative voices quietly lurk about.
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Fdeli
WinterDaze
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 04:41 PM »

Just a basic tip to keep in mind through the progression.


Higher wind = foot work, lots of foot work.



In 12 knots of wind a sequence of say 3-4 elements can leave me covering between 15-25m of ground

A flapjack at 'normal' speed in 12 knots would, for most kites at least, require about 2m of ground to complete maybe even more...

Feet, do your thang...


WD
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WinterDaze AoF
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 05:02 AM »

At 12-14 mph I'm flying a Rev. It's too hard to do much of anything in higher wind even with a vented kite. (For me, at least.) I know that running forward a lot and lunges will help but it's just more frustrating for m e. My favorite wind speed is 7-9 mph for a standard. If you're flying in higher wind, don't get frustrated - just enjoy it. At optimal wind speeds, you can work on tricks.

(I'm working on learning slot machines and yo yos right now when the wind is right.)

The snap pancake thing is not something I've heard of. Pancakes aren't easy when the wind is higher. Your frustration is understandable.

Half axels are choked off axels before the kite spins all the way around. Practice them at the edge of the wind window. On the right side, axel it counter clock-wise; on the left, do it clock-wise towards the center of the wind window.
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Bob D.
mnkypkl
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 09:32 PM »

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the help. I've had a chance to get out and try a couple of your ideas. Better, thanks. Re; the snap pancake. Many have not heard of it, so I reviewed Dodd's video. He does teach a snap pancake, an aerial pancake and a ground pancake. I got an older kite out of the bag and gave the snap pancake a go. I get confused because you fly toward the ground therefore which line is the outside and which the inside. I've done it a couple times and made a lawn dart once or twice also. I'll keep working. Thanks to Ca Ike for the tips on the snap and maybe we'll get together to fly sometime. I usually fly at Woodward Res. outside Oakdale. Mistlin Park may be a good meeting spot also.
Freecheese, I was more aware of my offhand and did some really nice half axels. More work needed but I get the feel of the other hand a bit better.
Fidelio, I don't know the reverse coin toss yet, but did substitute a regular coin toss for the flapjack and it worked great. Then today less wind and I nailed the flapjack again. I also am trying to be aware to move my feet like Winterdaze suggested.
Once again, thanks to all for the tips. I am listening and trying and most important having fun.
Thanks,
Kevin
P.S. Today was a very light wind so I flew my new Ocius SUL with zero air tubes. If you don't have one of these things, you ain't s...!OMG barely any wind (1-2mph) and it didn't stop me from flying. Very easy to trick with subtle imputs.
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fidelio
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 11:28 PM »

one of DPmama74's always awesome trick studies videos features the reverse coin toss. have a look, he's fantastic.

Spike/Reverse Coin Toss Studies
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Fdeli
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