GWTW Forum
September 14, 2014, 09:13 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Kite evolution  (Read 2355 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« on: April 06, 2011, 02:08 AM »

In real life, I'm an evolutionary biologist, and I've been playing with presenting the information I have on early dual-line kites as a sort of evolutionary tree. Here's a first draft: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hgHnT3KMwuplpn70SPn__Q?feat=directlink
There is no intention to be complete (waaaaay too many kites for that); the focus is mostly on showing the 'ancestors' of the current dual-line kites as they came into being mostly between the 1940s and 1980s, how the earliest dual-line kites are related to each other, and how they are related to older SLKs.

In the 'tree', non-dual-liners are presented in grey italics.

Comments welcome, either general, or about key kites I missed or key links I got wrong.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 09:49 AM by Dromel » Logged

stapp59
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 06:48 AM »

Wow.  This could be quite the research project especially if you show more details in each decade.  Perhaps an overall chart and detail charts for various time eras of the tree?  Whets my appetite for more. A visual history would be most excellent.

Thanks!
Steve
Logged
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 07:17 AM »

Would indeed be great, but also a major research project, as you say. Once you get into the 90s and beyond, there is such an explosion of dual-line deltas that it becomes basically impossible to say which one is the descendent of which one. Every next kite then is, to some degree, influenced by all who came before it. This is where the analogy between biological species and kites breaks down (kites can exchange 'genes' much easier than biological species can, or, in more biological terms, kites show lots of 'horizontal gene transfer', whereas you need predominantly 'vertical gene transfer' in order to get evolutionary trees), and this is why I stuck to the focus on the period from the 1940s to the 1980s.

Sorry if this gets too technical; been working on a lecture on horizontal and vertical gene transfer for my 2nd year evolution students this morning  Wink
Logged

mikenchico
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2173


Location: ‪‪‪‪‪‎Chico, Ca

WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 07:43 AM »

Hard also to figure out the family line on some.

Take for instance the Peter Powell and TRLBY/Ace, you currently show them in the same tree. But are they?

Although both are similar in appearance externally being diamond shaped the "skeletons" (framing) are quite different. The Peter Powell is framed more like a Delta with two leading edge spars, a spine and a spreader, while the TRLBY/Ace is framed with a spine and bowed cross spar, it looks like it descended from the Fighter Kite family with the addition of two line control.

I like the idea and your start though, but could it get as contentious as the Creation/Evolution debate?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 07:48 AM by mikenchico » Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 08:35 AM »

Yep, good point and that's exactly what I meant in my earlier posting. It's easy with kites to take an element of one kite, take an element of another, completely unrelated, kite, and put them together in a new 'hybrid' kite (and then hope it flies, obviously). So the Trlby/Ace can be seen as a hybrid between a Peter Powell sail and a fighter frame. Question now is where to put this hybrid on the tree. With the Peter Powell or with the fighters? Unless we create a net rather than a tree, we have to decide one way or another (by the way, 'nets of life' are used for bacteria etc, which exchange genetic material easily between unrelated species, whereas 'trees of life' are used for larger, more complex organisms, which can only produce fertile hybrids between very closely related species).

My gut feeling is that the Trlby/Ace is a descendent from a Peter Powell where a fighter-like frame was used rather than the other way around. Guess we can't be 100% sure unless we talk to the designers of the Trlby/Ace kites (which, I suspect, are no longer with us) and ask them exactly how they got to design those kites. Did they take a Peter Powell as a starting point and adapt the frame? Or did they take a fighter as a starting point and adapt the sail?

Logged

thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3590


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 08:41 AM »

in the diamond shaped stunters you should add in the Dyna-kites as well..framed more like a peter powell and started in the late 80's as well....
(we all know that this is a way for you to justify buying so many kites now Wink )
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
mikenchico
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2173


Location: ‪‪‪‪‪‎Chico, Ca

WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 08:58 AM »

TRLBY is still around, I have no idea who designed the kite. My gut feeling is the Powell evolved from the Rogollo Flexi-kite the same as the SLK Delta with the addition of a spreader. I believe later versions of the Flexi-kite had spines and leading edge spars. Assuming the Powell was on the market already TRLBY was looking for a less expensive or lighter or both way to build a competing product and looked to the 1000 year old Fighter kite design having a similar shape to the Powell. Plus a different frame now in the public domain avoided any Patent infringements.

Human design is not quite as easy as genetic unless as you say you have access to the designer.
Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 09:04 AM »

Quote
we all know that this is a way for you to justify buying so many kites now


Damn, my secret is out  Cry

Well, in that case, anyone who has a Trlby triple-stack (with tails, and in good condition) for sale or know where I could buy such a stack? Or a Cambridge Combat?

« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 09:46 AM by Dromel » Logged

Magpiesfooty
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2011, 09:27 PM »

Nice project, I am guessing that the "Target" kite that you mention in the 40's is the Garber Target kite? There are plans or guidlines for this kite mentioned in the May, 1945 edition of "Popular Science" magazine.  Interesting kite this kite and story is mentioned in the following magazine. (SKQ, Vol 3 No 1  Spring 1991)   There was also a pretty primitave dual line plastic delta kite made by Gayla called the Aerobat circa mid 70's. (I personally owned one...) This kite first had a single handle that had two lines that fed out to either side of a contraption and as you rolled your hand from side to side, the kite was supposed to move, left and right. Or you could grab the handle on either side and "steer" the kite in the sky. (Eehhhh.... not so much.) These lines were attached to a "Trapeze" bar that linked onto the leading edges with leader lines and looped through a hole in the keel.  Later editions had two separate rolls of lines included without the "handle."
Logged
DecSkybirds
Trade Count: (+1)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61

Location:

« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2011, 10:37 PM »

Very cool!  I am all about kite history, trying to digest as much as possible. 
Logged


Riders Of Heaven -Shiva STD, Shiva Comp UL, Shiva Full Vent, HQ X-Bow, Prism Quantum, Skyburner Wahoo UL
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 12:53 AM »

Yes, the Target kite is indeed the Garber one used in WWII to train gunners. One day I'll build myself a replica of this kite ...

Quote
There was also a pretty primitave dual line plastic delta kite made by Gayla called the Aerobat circa mid 70's. (I personally owned one...) This kite first had a single handle that had two lines that fed out to either side of a contraption and as you rolled your hand from side to side, the kite was supposed to move, left and right. Or you could grab the handle on either side and "steer" the kite in the sky. (Eehhhh.... not so much.) These lines were attached to a "Trapeze" bar that linked onto the leading edges with leader lines and looped through a hole in the keel.

That sounds like a cross between a Skynasaur Aerobat (earlier version had the single handle and 'trapeze bar') and a Gayla Baby Bat (a plastic delta SLK which could be bridled for dual-line control, and then had part of the bridle go through a hole in the keel).

You wouldn't have a picture of this Gayla Aerobat kite, would you?
Logged

Magpiesfooty
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 07:04 AM »

I found a site that has a pic of the header card for the Acrobat, (Yes it is actually called the Acrobat... sorry for the confusion.) on the Gayla Club site. Lots of kites there to see!   Enjoy!!    gaylaclub.com/kites/index.html 
Logged
Magpiesfooty
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 07:18 AM »

 @ dromel  Check out http://www.kite-classifieds.com/categories.html they had a few Trilbys for sale.  I have a stack of 5 Peter Powell's and like them a lot.  Stunt kite flying at it's simplicity.
Logged
Flying Fish
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


Location: UK south coast

WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 08:25 AM »

OK, the Gayla Acrobat appears very similar indeed to a dual-line Baby Bat.

As to the Trlbys on Charly's site, there's only one add-on left (as Charly told me), so that won't work for me!
Logged

Bob D
Trade Count: (+1)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 573


Location: Saratoga County, NY

« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2011, 10:04 AM »

Interesting idea. I've got a mental picture of Ben Franklin discovering electricity and spontaneously creating the first kite with spectra, carbon fiber and icarex. WHAM! The proto-kite!
Logged

Bob D.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!