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Author Topic: Over steer... Discus  (Read 2329 times)
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WinterDaze
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« on: April 12, 2011, 04:36 PM »

Hi all,

So, over steer....

I hear many folk dividing kites into 2 categories like old school vs new school, trick vs Precision etc... but I'm wondering if we can also add a lesser discussed class of division, that of 'over steer',  those that spin in on a twitch and those that drive like Volvo's   Wink

To start it off.


I have had an SB Ocius in my bag for the last 2-3 months, tried it out a few times and after an hour or so I'd had to conclude that if I was going to get this kite to fly like I meant it (1/2 of ADX's skill would be fine  Wink) I would be walking away from the Talon for a while, and the reason is over steer. The Ocius over steers like a Lotus in my hands, the Talon rarely shows that side of it's personality.

I have a few kites in my bag that over steer, and I've seen them, in the right hands really dance. But for now I make them look like a
Penny Racer



So is over steer something that you look for in a kite? And therefore is the euphemism for over steer, 'twitchy, needs small inputs"...

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WinterDaze AoF
tpatter
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 05:11 PM »

Personally, no oversteer for me please.  Smiley

I tolerate it in my 4D as the thing weighs a few ozs and will float around when nothing else will.  I also like the Shadow for similar reasons and have just adjusted to it. 

I have heard that it helps for some tricks like the taz and backspin cascade (making those tricks easier).
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 05:21 PM »

No oversteer for me, for sure..........I'm not sure if the euphemism of twitchy fits. I look at oversteer more as an inability to track well, as in the difference between Tom's Shadow and the Quantum Pro.........It's a given that the super gifted pilots will not have as much trouble with that, (with their hand - eye coordination) but referring to a lesser mortal, as myself  Cry
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 06:15 PM »

A kite that has a fast spin and slow recovery can be considered to have oversteer. Once it's turning it takes more concentration/practice/skill to get it to stop turning the way you want. This has nothing to do with tracking. I've flown kites that were dead steady on a line, but needed care in the corners and visa versa. Two totally different flight characteristics. Oversteer as a design flaw is when no reasonable amount of tuning or familiarization will result in controllable exits from corners. Twitchy and oversteer are not synonymous. Some kites are responsive to any little input, usually smaller kites. Oversteer isn't always related to size. I've seen 9' kites that were slow into a turn and then didn't like to stop.

Most well made kites don't have real oversteer. They may spin and recover differently than you're used to, but that doesn't mean something is wrong with the design.

The first time a I flew an Ocius standard I was very impressed with it's flight characteristics. No issues at all. A year later I flew an Ocius UL in the upper end of it's wind range and again, it handled fine. I am used to flying a fairly quick 7' kite on a regualr basis, so YMMV. Jon T. mentioned how much he enjoys flying the Ocius to music. I'd agree. A nice dance partner.

I probably adjust bridles more for turn rate than any other characteristic. A spinny kite can usually be tuned. I've bought a lot of used (and some new) kites with jacked up bridles.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 06:19 PM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 06:16 PM »

I classify oversteer as the rotation that continues to occur AFTER you return your hands to the neutral position.  

My Ocius is fast turning, but it does snap back into straight flight as soon as I want it to.  

In contrast, my Nirvana FX Extend used to keep turning at least half a rotation or more.  Luckily, some experimenting with tube weight and (more importantly) bridle has almost eliminated it completely.  The rest is done with flying style - I went from a passive one to a more active one.  Took a bit of getting used to, but definitely was a benefit to all my flying.

Flying with assertive inputs, a la Debray, will pretty much clean up the last tendencies to over rotate.  The European flyers perform turns (and slack line stuff) at close to arms length, then pull their hands together, and rapidly back to just in front of their sternum when coming out of turns.  This eliminates any rotational momentum and forces the kite forward all in the one movement.  Very snappy looking, very effective.
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Kevin Sanders

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 07:40 PM »


I seem to recall shortening the upper bridle leg a touch helps eliminate oversteer.

It worked on the R-Sky Manga anyways.

-Frazer
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JimB
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 08:41 PM »

Very few modern kites have what I would characterize as oversteer.

Since the advent of the Wardley Active Bridle™ oversteer has been a real no no in kite design, regardless of the bridle type used on a particular kite. Fliers have become oversteer adverse to a greater extent than was once the case.

Prior to that event there really were a lot of kites that exhibited serious oversteer. It was a "feature" not a fault with a lot of the earlier "Trick" kites. Oversteer was considered "tricky".

There is a difference between full on oversteer and sensitivity to input.

I can't think of a recent kite design that I've flown that had actual oversteer: certainly nothing designed in the last Ten Years.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:11 AM by JimB » Logged
mikenchico
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 09:01 PM »

Oversteer can be a function of over control on the pilots part. Some older kites like the Utopia and Trick Tail would seem to have nearly unmanageble oversteer until you learned the 2 inch movement then they became extremely precise.

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freecheese
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2011, 10:52 PM »

Penny racers.


Yes.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 11:07 PM »

Some older kites like the Utopia and Trick Tail would seem to have nearly unmanageble oversteer until you learned the 2 inch movement then they became extremely precise.

Well, that would be a good example of flying style and what you fly a lot. I flew a Tricktail for the first time recently and found snap corners and overall precise flying totally sweet. If i'd been flying nothing but modern french style kites, I suppose my experience with the TT could have been different.

I agree with JimB, this is the kind of thing designed out of modern kites, but bare in mind it can be added back in by mods. Excessive tail weight, bridle tweaks, reframes, etc.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
WinterDaze
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 11:45 PM »

Thanks for the input everyone, to be fair to the Ocius, although the kite was reacting very differently to my Talon tuned inputs i was starting to make sense of it after a bit, enough so that it'll get another run or 2.  Smiley After all,  it gave me my first, second, and third 'Taz' so there's got to be something in it.   Grin

I can see that there is 2 schools at least on this.

KaoS, thanks for the tip, I was having play with that very idea when the wind and rain told me it was time to go, I'll put that on the top of the list next time out, cheers.

Allan, I agree with the tracking and spinning being 2 different things, I have one of MB's Synthesis', it tracks straight lines beautifully but in my hands it's prone  to spinning out on the turns, yet I've seen vids of people really keeping it in check. I think it's a RT bridle, which might help explain it.

Has sail area got a hand in this trait? or is it more a bridle thing?

Cheers,

WD
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WinterDaze AoF
Allen Carter
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 11:58 PM »



Has sail area got a hand in this trait? or is it more a bridle thing?



The kite design is a big part of it. Not just size and shape but weight distribution, standoff lenghts and placement, all kinda stuff. Of course, the bridle is the other half of the game. No amount of bridle tweak can fix some kite problems.
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Allen, AKA kitehead
zippy8
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 12:00 AM »

So, over steer.... is the euphemism for over steer, 'twitchy, needs small inputs"...

No. Oversteer is keeps on turning when no longer being told to do so, twitchy is eager to start turning.

The combination of the two I find tiresome - it's just difficult to place the kite - but oversteer can make an otherwise dull kite a bit more interesting and a twitchy kite makes for an active days flying if nothing else  Smiley Back in The Day© a few kites came with a pile of oversteer because it made them "trickier".

Quote from: JimB
Since the advent of the Wardley Active Bridle™

I'd put the emphasis more on the move from shallow to deep sails. A flat sail can just keep on spinnin' an' spinnin' whereas a deeper sail self limits more quickly. If I had any old kites left I might try to demonstrate this  Grin

Quote
I can't think of a recent kite design that I've flown that had actual oversteer: certainly nothing designed in the last Ten Years.

You perhaps haven't made the acquaintance of the Cosmic TC XS then  Huh If I may be so presumptuous as to quote myself:-

As delivered it had heroic oversteer, bordering on the design fault.

The you-row-peon flying style of punching your arms out and snapping them back isn't really about killing oversteer so much as it helps to punctuate and sharpen angular turns. If a kite has really major oversteer then even trying to steer it out of a turn won't help.

Going from flying one (bigger) kite to another (smaller) can really exaggerate the differences between the kites. Try dropping a Fury then picking up a Dot Matrix -  you'll find all manner of problems to begin with. Wink

Mike.


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JimB
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 12:41 AM »

zipman wrote..

"I'd put the emphasis more on the move from shallow to deep sails. A flat sail can just keep on spinnin' an' spinnin' whereas a deeper sail self limits more quickly. If I had any old kites left I might try to demonstrate this.."

Mmmm.. OTOH.

The sl7 has a pretty deep sail.

I think we can all agree there's a bit of oversteer there.

Not that I entirely disagree with you.

I do think the OS represented a shift in the thinking of designers vis a vis oversteer: prior to=quite a few oversteery kites, after=not so much.

But, I'd agree that in general terms deeper sails contribute to less oversteer barring other design elements contributing to it.

It's possible to take an inherently understeering kite and get it to oversteer if you screw it up enough, as Allen has pointed out previously.
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coogee
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 02:55 AM »




In contrast, my Nirvana FX Extend used to keep turning at least half a rotation or more.  Luckily, some experimenting with tube weight and (more importantly) bridle has almost eliminated it completely.  The rest is done with flying style - I went from a passive one to a more active one.  Took a bit of getting used to, but definitely was a benefit to all my flying.


This quote from Kevin seems to me to be the most pertinent to the over steer question. The  Organic I built had serious oversteer. I pulled some rake from the mast by shortening the upper bridle leg and got rid of most of the problem. The next step was to adapt  my flying technique. I keep tension on both lines either with hand or foot movements when exiting turns. I at first thought that my Organic was seriously wrong  but now I find it great fun and a trick monster.
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