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Author Topic: Leech line on a rev?  (Read 2906 times)
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Ca Ike
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« on: April 24, 2011, 05:07 PM »

I've been flying dual line for years and just recently picked up a rev 1.5 SLE package off the swap for a really good deal.  This is  pretty much brand new rev (well not anymore since I have about 20 hours on it already) but it has had a really loose edge between the vert spars and the middle panel.  It wasn't a problem when learning the basic flight like prop turns and different loops but I have started working on hovers and now its causing some issues.

WHen in an inverted hover I have had the TE flutter enough to catch the wind wrong and flip the coresponding vert spar toward me  killing the kite turning it into a dead leaf which is kind of cool when it comes toward me and I can catch it, but for the most part its just annoying.  I've had the same issues when trying prop spins and reverse flight.

Now I've already gone through and tuned the sail by adjusting the bungies with the help of post and tutorials from John Bariesi and a few others but no matter how much I tune the bungies the flutter in the TE never changes.  I've thought about putting a leech line in the TE to help snug up the sail but I don't know enough about revs to decide if its worth a try or not.

ANyone ever try adding a leech line?  Or is there something else I can do other than the so called "sissy sticks" to get better TE tension?  Sail tension is fine and it flies as well as my skill allows but the TE is causing some fine control issues.
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thief
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 05:38 PM »

quad sticks work very well..............
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Will Sturdy
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 06:03 PM »

Are you using the SLE leading edge? If you haven't yet, definitely try a 3-wrap or race leading edge. It makes a huge difference. As Rob said the magic sticks will help a lot with it flipping inside out.

A leech line will only add an odd billow to the sail and kill your low wind performance since the billow will move towards the trailing edge - all that cloth has to go somewhere! It will create a very inefficient shape. A leech line is good for cutting down buzz, but when there's actually fabric flapping like on revs it's not going to help.

What will help the most is practice. That will generally only happen if you over control it. Back off just a hair on the amount of brake you are giving the kite and it won't do that quite so much. You might actually find it easier if you shorten the brake line leadout if you haven't done so already. That will put your wrists at a more natural angle when in a hover so you'll have greater control. It will take a bit to get used to, but really helps once you get over the learning bump.
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2011, 06:50 PM »

Quote
Are you using the SLE leading edge? If you haven't yet, definitely try a 3-wrap or race leading edge. It makes a huge difference. As Rob said the magic sticks will help a lot with it flipping inside out.
  I'm flying it stock for now with the SLE leading edge it came with.  WInd range on the 3-4 wrap rods are listed as the same as the SLE but what are the differences in flight?
Quote
A leech line will only add an odd billow to the sail and kill your low wind performance since the billow will move towards the trailing edge - all that cloth has to go somewhere! It will create a very inefficient shape. A leech line is good for cutting down buzz, but when there's actually fabric flapping like on revs it's not going to help.
  THis is what I kind of figured.  On duals the rest of the frame and panel design serves to create the sail shape and billow so the leech line doesn't really affect it, but a rev seems to rely more on the winds to shape the sail so a leech line would have a big affect on sail shape if I understand the theory correctly.


I'm also using the 11 inch stock rev handles, and either 40 or 65 foot lines depending on where I'm flying mainly to keep the kite close enough to see how it reacts to inputs.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 07:01 PM by Ca Ike » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2011, 07:22 PM »

WHen in an inverted hover I have had the TE flutter enough to catch the wind wrong and flip the coresponding vert spar toward me  killing the kite turning it into a dead leaf
Had this happen a lot when I first tried a Rev out.  It came down to just too much input on the break.  And I think 1.5 are usually flown on 13" handles. 
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tcope
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 12:12 PM »

Just a note... the Quad Sticks that Thief mentioned are not handles, they are stikes that attach to the kite and help prevent the sail from flopping in the wind.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
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Todd Copeland
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2011, 12:50 PM »

The condition you describe is far more a training issue than equipment.  Sure, you can tweak things a bit by adjusting sail tension, using different size handles, or even adding something like the Magic Sticks, but ultimately you're not going to conquer the problem through adjustments.  Practice, practice, practice....
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lylenc
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2011, 02:17 PM »

You can get away with more brake input at the center of the wind window than you can at the edge. The kite will bow tie, the vertical spar flip you are describing, more easily at the edge of the window than the center. With more time in the air, you'll recognize when the kite is just about ready to bow tie and you can back off of the brake input a little to prevent the problem.

PS: Bow ties also happen easier at the top of the window, so you'll need to back off the brake input there, too.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 02:27 PM by lylenc » Logged

Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
Ca Ike
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2011, 06:00 PM »

THanks for all the advice guys.  I know part of the problem is line sensetivity and part is also the rough wind conditions I've been flying in.  I've looked at the quad stick mod and I just don't like the idea of 12 inch long rods off the back of the kite.  IF I wanted a frame like that I'd have gotten an airbow.  Maybe there is a better alternative but for now I want to learn on the kite as designed before I start modding.  However a line through the edge might not be a bad idea to stabilize the edge like you do with some slk diamond kites but not a leech line per say.
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Watty
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 06:33 PM »

I really wouldn't suggest adding a leech line. Tension of the trailing edge is really not a big deal. The problem with inverted hovers, or any type of reverse flight for that matter, is not something cause by the kite, but by the flyer over-controlling it. Less is more. It's really all about practice, and there are no modifications that can be done to teach you to do an inverted hover.
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bigpappo1
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 09:51 PM »

The sticks help more than hinder for awhile.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:53 PM by bigpappo1 » Logged
REVflyer
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 05:39 AM »

In my case I added magix sticks after the first 7 years of flying Revs w/o 'em.  I used to laugh at folks using "sissy sticks", then found out that the differences in flight adding these items caused was off-set by their benefits.  Some things are almost impossible without them, . . . a rolled-up launch or a roll-up landing are but 2 examples.

The "downwind field recovery glide" is significantly increased by adding a stiffening structure on the back of the sail.  Also you can frame lighter because the stresses are distributed over a greater surface area, just like a suspension bridge which expands the wind range more towards to low end and out further on the edges.  A kite with big venting has a narrower power zone in the wind window.

The kite won't blow away upon landings or during set-ups.  (you'd still land inverted, for safety though)

It is much more difficult to snag a flying line, (when using magix sticks) meaning the use or practice of trick-flying is done with a high level of confidence.  You can get out of almost anything, so yank and spank away my friend, just to see what happens!

Even my indoor kites use some style of magic sticks now.  I can fly without 'em but constantly complain about the limits this choice has imposed upon me.  One of the best investments in modifications you can sample, and it's certainly easy to remove if, after a fair test you find it's not your thing.
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thief
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 09:03 AM »

In my case I added magix sticks after the first 7 years of flying Revs w/o 'em.  I used to laugh at folks using "sissy sticks",
yes you did Paul!
we sold a lot of them in the early to mid 90s and then a dry spell then wave of them in the mid 00s until we closed....

They are good!!!! and not for sissies and are not training wheels

We even made them for the Blast and one set for the power blast as well..

rob
of the old High Flyers in Newport
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tpatter
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 10:05 AM »

yes you did Paul!
we sold a lot of them in the early to mid 90s and then a dry spell then wave of them in the mid 00s until we closed....

They are good!!!! and not for sissies and are not training wheels

We even made them for the Blast and one set for the power blast as well..
rob
of the old High Flyers in Newport

Where can you get them or how do you make them?
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6 kite tom
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 12:24 PM »

Here is a copy of a post made by Paul a couple of years ago on the rev forum:

disclaimer: Magix Stiks on the back aren't going to make you a master,.... and if you're one already you may not like the difference either!
For the first seven years I laughed at folks using training wheels, then I gave 'em a fair chance and found out I liked it better with, than without. I even use then on my indoor kites now!!!! In my limited quad-line experience of about 10 hours a week since '93, here's my response to the differences question.

larger wind window (kite doesn't fall out of the sky at the edges nearly as easily)

no more bow-tie, (half the wing can't invert over upon itself when teaching lessons)

no walk of shame, (it's much more difficult to snag a flying line)

better float, (you can release the kite entirely when it's inverted and it will glide straight down unattended & slowly)

More stiffness or structure to the kite = easier to dump air and flat spin, flip inside out, 3-D movements, etc

weight increase of the training wheels is offset by the ability to use lighter weight components through-out


For outdoor kites I use point 125 carbon tubes,
long sticks would be half the length of your down tubes, short would be a 1/3.
the tubes are sold at a length of 48 inches, so perfectly cut you'd get three 16 inchers out of the original length

I force a 2MM FSD Nock endcap (not a slotted cap, but the full-hole style) onto the end,
The other end is a LONG vinyl endcap to fit a .125 stick

You need a APA standoff that fits tightly onto your down tubes
I have used hot water to soften the rubbery material, then slide it on and wait for it to cool into place.
I've used vinyl tubing to make stoppers and I've used vinyl electrical tape to hold em in position also if the fit is loose.

You will make a little tiny patch (an inch in diameter) to go underneath the standoff fitting on the back of the sail. Take a matching/or contrasting piece of fabric and coat the back with stripes of 9460 3M adhesive (double sided tape, the stuff is designed to adhere two metals together!!!)
slap it in place and leave a heavy weight on it overnight or carefully iron it using a low setting to fuse in place)

75# to 90# sprectra for the truss lines
You want 'em tight, but no so tight that it adds curvature to the frame. Carefully pass the line thru the end cap hole, insuring the magix stick is centered-vertical and tie off in two directions. You want no knots on the endcaps and no distortion of the frame members! You aren't running four lines but instead it's two, folded in half and secured at the endcap. A couple of wraps around the cap will prevent any slipage.

I position the standoff fitting about 11-1/2 to 12 inches measured down from the leading edge top.

You can go to a lighter and tapered Skyshark tube for the downspars also. I've never broken a Response 12 tube since I began using them. You can buy blemished tubes for a couple of dollars each from the distributor. I've never had one of these fail either and I've been teaching & abusing my own kites for many years.

The last benefit?
If, after a couple of weeks on trial-basis, you don't like it, they're easy to remove. Pull off the stand-off fitting & cut away the truss lines.

Hope it helps
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