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Author Topic: Deep Space vs Talon  (Read 8063 times)
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portley777
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 01:53 AM »

  I have an UL and Vented but not a STD as of yet (go figure). They are certainly at the top of their class compared to other ULs and VTDs. I kind of thought my DS would cover the STD range but they are very different kites. I love my DS but it needs a smooth breeze (as does the Talon VTD incidently).

Cheers,
Mike
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kite a fly go
Francois
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 03:50 PM »




UL and STD. Another STD on the way (A RED one)....



The vented one!

And finaly my Std that I sold:



Nices kites!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 03:53 PM by Francois » Logged

The new Frank!
kiteslinger
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 05:24 PM »

franks
 std. talon looks better here in Ca. anyway Cheesy


I would order a vented but a new pair of work boot are  at the top of the list
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50flyer
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2009, 05:53 PM »

Nice looking kites.
I'll have Talon in a few weeks.
Bob M.
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mikenchico
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 12:14 PM »

franks
 std. talon looks better here in Ca. anyway Cheesy


I would order a vented but a new pair of work boot are  at the top of the list


Bob said it "And don't the sun look good goin' down over the sea" or a kite for that matter  Smiley

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"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
DaveH
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2009, 07:53 PM »

This is tough.  I was all set to order my DS and now all these great pictures of Talons are everywhere.  And then, there's the fact that my inland winds are often a bit rough.  Decent, to be sure, but not terribly smooth.  And the Talon is supposed to handle these winds better than the DS.  *sigh*  AND.....  my winds tend to be in the 8 to 12 range.  The Talon std is said to be great at the upper ranges of std weight kites.  I gotta admit, the Talon looks way better than the DS.  and you get to pick the colors.  I think I may be weakening...
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50flyer
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2009, 02:36 AM »

Dave order both so you won't have any doubts that you picked the right kite.

Bob M.
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JimB
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2009, 09:24 AM »

Just to add my dissenting opinion..

I've flown both the DS and Talon std in very rough winds, in fact, on the same day .

I thought the DS was better under those conditions.

Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.
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DaveH
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2009, 09:37 AM »

Good to know.  I just sent Tim an E mail...
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DWayne
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 10:04 AM »


Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.

Maybe you could explain how, exactly, changing the lower leading edge from Nitro to 5Pt would effect the overall balance & flight of this particular kite?
What exactly would it improve?


Denny
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mikenchico
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2009, 12:56 PM »

You can't change just the lower leading edge since Nitro's have a larger diameter then 5PT's. But changing both the upper and lower rods won't change the kites balance much since both rods are 15 grams. You'll also have to replace the APA connectors since they won't fit tightly on the 5PT's. I don't know how the Talon rods are cut, Nitro's can be trimmed on either end, 5PT's only on the small end so you may change the distribution of flex and the weight distribution to a small extent over the length.

Anybody doing this can send me those old Nitro's and fittings, I've loved them in every application I've flown them and have not liked the same kite as much when framed in P200's (same weight) or 3PT's (as UL's). Can't say on the Talon though having not flown either version yet.



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"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

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DWayne
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2009, 01:00 PM »

You can't change just the lower leading edge since Nitro's have a larger diameter then 5PT's. But changing both the upper and lower rods won't change the kites balance much since both rods are 15 grams. You'll also have to replace the APA connectors since they won't fit tightly on the 5PT's. I don't know how the Talon rods are cut, Nitro's can be trimmed on either end, 5PT's only on the small end so you may change the distribution of flex and the weight distribution to a small extent over the length.

Anybody doing this can send me those old Nitro's and fittings, I've loved them in every application I've flown them and have not liked the same kite as much when framed in P200's (same weight) or 3PT's (as UL's). Can't say on the Talon though having not flown either version yet.





On the Talon the upper leading edge is P200. The lower leading edge is BD Nitro.  Wink


Denny
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mikenchico
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2009, 02:14 PM »

Really, he's building a special ferrule? (sorry Zippy if I got that wrong) If I recall a standard Skyshark Ferrule with a section of P100 fits inside the Nitro so I guess that's not too hard to do.

Being the rods are the same weight, in fact that P200 upper is very close to the 15 grams of the Nitro & 5PT at 14.5 grams then the builder obviously felt the added stiffness in the lower leading edge warranted the extra expense.

The kite may get wingtip shudder in higher winds like the Mantis/Muse design then, that's why Ken worked with Jon to develop the Nitro's. I assume the sail loading with higher aspect ratio's and a higher spreader position to allow them to sit deeper on thier back were resulting in the need for more stiffness. Or maybe it's just the deeper sails and narrower stand-off positions causing a change in the angle of atack and more drag, wish I had the time and money to build 1000 designs to understand the aerodynamics.

I'm guessing the UL's use a P100 upper with 3PT lowers and 3PT Spreaders then?

« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 02:31 PM by mikenchico » Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

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DWayne
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2009, 02:31 PM »

You're right. No special ferrule needed. Just sleeve the Nitro rod with P100 and use a standard Skyshark ferrule.  Wink
I've had mine out in 15 to 20 mph winds and didn't get any tip shudder. I did get the urge to buy a vented Talon though.  Cheesy
 The UL uses P90 upper leading edge. 3Pt lower leading edge and lower spreader.

Denny
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JimB
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2009, 09:18 PM »

It's personal preference for the most part. Flying a high aspect kite with super stiff LEs feels like flying a 2X4 to me. They have, in my experience, a tendency to oversteer, especially in choppy conditions, which I don't mind in general, but with technical kites of this nature; I tend to prefer for them to fly within themselves.

Additionally, again in my experience, something a bit less stiff in the LE than the Nitro is less likely to break when coming into contact with the ground, either by misadventure or on purpose, depending on the kite.

The Talon standard is an exceptional kite. I'd just prefer if it wasn't quite as stiff as it is in the LEs.

This is the main reason I personally prefer the Talon UL. It is a more balanced kite than the standard IMO, mostly due to the more flexible, sticks in the LE.

YMMV


Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.

Maybe you could explain how, exactly, changing the lower leading edge from Nitro to 5Pt would effect the overall balance & flight of this particular kite?
What exactly would it improve?


Denny
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 09:20 PM by JimB » Logged
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