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Author Topic: Deep Space vs Talon  (Read 8654 times)
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Mark E Mark
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2009, 07:21 AM »

I don't find the Talon Standard to be over framed in any way - in fact, I much prefer it's very stiff frame and find it is easier to fly (trick) in higher winds than the DS (I'm not the only one either). The DS does have a lower wind range though.
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Francois
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2009, 07:41 AM »

I don't find the Talon Standard to be over framed in any way - in fact, I much prefer it's very stiff frame and find it is easier to fly (trick) in higher winds than the DS (I'm not the only one either). The DS does have a lower wind range though.

Exactly
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benjai
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2009, 12:46 PM »

So, as someone in a similar position of flying a DS, and loving it, but finding it unmanageable in higher winds and therefore looking at a Talon vent, the summary is:

DS is really good and goes into low wind (for a standard)
The Talon standard is better at a slightly higher wind range than the DS
The Talon UL is better in lower wind than both the DS and T std
The Talon vent is the best of the lot in very high wind...

in other words, you really need all four! Anyone want to hazard a guess what the USP of the DS UL will be when it comes out?
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DWayne
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2009, 01:28 PM »

Personally, I like them just the way they are.  Cool


Denny
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Mark E Mark
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2009, 01:50 AM »

So, as someone in a similar position of flying a DS, and loving it, but finding it unmanageable in higher winds and therefore looking at a Talon vent, the summary is:

DS is really good and goes into low wind (for a standard)
The Talon standard is better at a slightly higher wind range than the DS
The Talon UL is better in lower wind than both the DS and T std
The Talon vent is the best of the lot in very high wind...

in other words, you really need all four! Anyone want to hazard a guess what the USP of the DS UL will be when it comes out?


Well yes........and no (IMHO). The DS is good and does go really low - it seems to have a particularly efficient sale design. As you say, it doesnít work as well in stronger winds than the Talon standard and I (and others) have also found the standard to be a bit better in gusty conditions (though these are very difficult conditions to fly in regardless). In truth, although relatively similar, the Talon and the DS are different in absolute feel but not really sufficiently so to warrant using both (not for me at any rate and I often fly a friends DS). If I owned a DS I wouldn't probably need the Talon standard and possibly not the UL - similarly if I owned a Standard and UL (which I do), I wouldn't buy a DS. I have flown all three of the Talon models and have found they have a particularly wide crossover in wind range - you can fly the UL well into standard strength wind - the standard into vented and the vented flyís in surprisingly little wind (I've managed to get tricks out of one in almost UL conditions). The crossover is so extensive (much more so than the Akuji's I own(ed) that another standard/UL seems rather superfluous (unless it requires a quite different style of flying).

In the past I've read comment on this forum saying that how stiffly a kite is framed makes no difference - well it does; in fact, it makes a really big difference. The DS has a stiff frame but the Talon has an even stiffer one and you can feel this difference when you fly it. I flew my standard for the first time for ages the other day (I have flown the UL a lot recently) and at first I was struck by how 'heavy' it felt (in terms of input feel, not quantity or the amount of lift produced) and then I started to enjoy the added momentum until I ended up having one of the best flying sessions I've ever had. Although the Talon UL is remarkable in terms of balance and has a sort of 'wow there's hardly any wind and yet this kite is really tricky and I can do all my standard wind tricks' quality, I think the Standard is still my favourite. It's certainly not a floaty design though (nor is the DS really) and is very much a wrist flicky, straight from one trick to the other, dictate the moves to it, kind of kite.

If I could only have one kite it may well be the DS - quite a similar feel to the Talon (a bit more leg work required) but a truly remarkably wide wind range (particularly at the lower end). However, if you want it to wrap up a little quicker and can afford two kites, I prefer the Talon Standard and UL (I would buy the vented today if I had the money). The Talonís and the DS are not enormously different in feel to each other, certainly many other kites I have flown are much greater in terms of flying differences.

Don't hold your breath for the DS UL - Tim's not exactly rushed it into production. In fact, I honestly thought we would never see one (and I'm not really sure, even now, one is needed) but there has been talk on the 'the other place' regarding imminent production so it looks likely one will be made (eventually).

If you already own a DS I would recommend the Talon vented to you without hesitation - definitely copes better in significantly higher winds - much less pull than the DS in higher winds and a surprisingly similar overall feel.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 02:00 AM by Mark E Mark » Logged
DaveH
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2009, 10:26 AM »

Very nice post, Mark.  Puts a lot into perspective.
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benjai
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2009, 01:47 PM »

Mark,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post all that - it's really useful...

I have to say that you've confirmed what I thought, even though I've never flown a Talon. I'm pretty sure that a DS & T(v) would be a good two kite bag, as I already have the DS. Maybe if you are starting from nothing a T(ul) & T(v) would be pretty good... It's not that I need another kite, and as you say, it's rare that there isn't enough wind to fly the DS with it's good low end (it's good practice to keep a STD flying in UL wind), but there are some times when the DS just gets too fast for tricking - after a while, having to run to cascade gets tiresome. BTW - I've seen at least two (maybe three - I forget) vented DS's. Were these protos or DIY jobs? Anyone Know?

Anyhow, with all that in mind... I'm off to spend the next two weeks(conservative estimate) agonising over that damned colouriser!!!

Thanks again.
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Mark E Mark
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2009, 01:48 PM »

Cheers....bit long winded though...sorry bout that  Roll Eyes
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Adicakes
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2009, 05:33 PM »

BTW - I've seen at least two (maybe three - I forget) vented DS's. Were these protos or DIY jobs?

DIY.
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Mark E Mark
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2009, 12:28 AM »

Yeah, as said below, these were all DIY jobs. I've not heard any rumours of an official vented appearing - it may happen one day but certainly not any time in the near future.
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obijuankenobe
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2009, 01:23 AM »

This is a really lively discussion. 

Stiff kites are great.  More of your input (after straightening the lines), goes directly to moving the kite.  It usually has a secondary effect of moving weight out to the wings, making the kite behave often much better and more balanced.  I find these are the primary trade-off made when flying ULs/SULs.  The only time stiffness would be a drawback is if that meant more breakage as well.  With 7PT...this is not an issue.

I have an SD light and an SD 8-vent.  I find these to be all in need.  Well before the light is overpowered, the vented flies WELL.  Could you say maybe this with the Talon range as well?  Mark seems to think there is a great deal of overlap in wind ranges.  I ask because flying the vented SD is great in lower winds (around 7-10mph) because it's so stiff and heavy, but it still flies well.  The key is that in these conditions, you get gusts...and the vents love these.  You can really give it all you can, and it just laughs and spins...only the lines cry from the hard inputs.  I have a sneaky suspicion I'd like the vented Talon for exactly the same reasons (and winds).

obi

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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." L daVinci
Mark E Mark
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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2009, 02:55 AM »

I've flown the Talon (UL) and (S) a lot, the DS too - but I've only flown the Talon (V) a couple of times. Certainly, the first time I flew the vented the winds were really UL (which is what I had just been flying) and the vented could fly and trick most of the time (with care). I think the wind range of the Talon (UL) and (V) probably do cross over (certainly the UL goes well into standard strength wind range) - I will still have a standard as well though. Flying the vented in low winds is a bit strange (in a cool way) cos most of the time it feels a bit like an UL but with the inertia of a Standard - it doesn't feel that heavy at all, then when you make a mistake it suddenly feels really heavy and just falls out of the sky.

One of the reasons I sold my Akuji vented was because it didn't really like gusty conditions - perhaps due to the very extended wing tips (which do look cool) - it pulled too much too.
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DaveH
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2009, 06:14 AM »

another thing about stiff kites is they dampen quicker.  Less flexing and moving about after an input.  The solid feel of a stiff frame is really something I like. I've found also that flying vents in lighter winds is suprisingly doable.  Unless, as stated above, you make a mistake..   And also one of the main benifits of a vented kites should be the ability to smooth out gusts.  I tend to fly mine toward the upper std range just to make things easier. 
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lylenc
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 07:43 AM »

Hijack alert:

"another thing about stiff kites is they dampen quicker.  Less flexing and moving about after an input.  The solid feel of a stiff frame is really something I like. "

The same can be said about Rev SLE versus 3-wrap

Unhijack.
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Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
DaveH
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2009, 08:00 AM »

Craig,
nicely managed Wink
One thing i have discovered through these Talon/DS threads is that I probably should look at getting a different V. I really want to try the Talon vented. Seems like it might be the best one going at the moment.  And I think somebody said this already, a very resonable two kite bag would be the DS and Talon vented.
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