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Author Topic: Front Flip Entry to Yoyo  (Read 1639 times)
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jaydub
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« on: April 26, 2011, 05:50 AM »

Having a complete mental blank on this one.

I know the theory: rock the noes back, smallish tap on the lines to let it roll foward into the front flip and then pull evenly on the lines to roll up.

It's the second part that gets me: the kite either rocks forward 20 degrees and flies off, rocks forward 45 degrees and doesn't give me time to react quick enough for the rotation pull or occasionally (1 out of 40 or so) comes the full 90 degrees and I'm so shocked I mistime the pull. (I also have a tendency to pull the front flip unevenly on the DS and have it rotate round into a fade, but at this stage I'm more concerned about getting a consistently deep front flip.)

I've stared at Trick or Treat and Randy G's videos (Especially the Yoyo short - Sorry Randy still haven't got it!) 'til I'm blue in the face and some of the better UK fliers have tried to show me how to do it face to face with limited success (think this is more down to me than their tuition!!).

However if anybody has got any pearls of wisdom out there in terms of what I might be doing wrong, could they please chuck them in my direction!

Weapons of choice are the DS (Std & UL), Talon and Sin, so any kite specific tips would also be appreciated.

Thx,

Jon
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 06:48 AM by jaydub » Logged
Bob D
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2011, 09:56 AM »

I just got back from my lunch break flying my DS. It 79 degrees and a nice wind at the soccer field where I fly. I started to get yoyos last fall and I was able to get a bunch today. (I've been working at it for about 3 years now. I average learning 1 or 2 tricks a year.)

Yoyos started to click with me while watching Tim Benson's Trick or Treat video. I noticed that it really helps to start with your arms behind you before slacking the lines before you pop the nose. Slack the lines and practice popping the nose towards you. If you can get the nose to pop towards you, the rest of the trick will work.

When the nose pops towards you make sure that the lines don't go too slack because you need to be able sweep the lines back to start the roll up. After you sweep your arms back the kite starts to roll up; you need to throw your arms forward to give more slack to allow it to continue to roll up.

The wind speed today was great today because it wasn't too fast. If it's too fast, I have trouble giving it enough slack to pop the nose. For me, the nose pop is key. For you, it sounds like you're getting the nose pop but you might not be sweeping quickly enough. Sweep your arms back as soon as the nose comes towards you in one fluid motion and then give lots of slack. (And if that doesn't work, practice somthing else.)


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Bob D.
jaydub
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 10:27 AM »

Thanks, Bob.

However, it's the nose pop that (I think) I'm having problems with.

Any advice on how far back you let the DS go into a turtle before the nose pop and what the intensity of pop you use (a tap or is it more of a firm pop?) would be really useful.

I'm sure the roll up bit will sort itself out once I get a consistent front flip.
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Bob D
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 11:21 AM »

Don't let it drop too far back, just enough to give you some slack to pop the nose forward. If it turtles, it's too much slack. The nose pop is just enough to get the nose to come forward so that you can sweep it. The strength of the pop depends on how hard the wind is blowing but you want the nose to rock forward so that you can sweep it up and around.
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Bob D.
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 12:09 PM »

Somebody pointed out once before a good practice for rolling the kite up. It's not going to help with the rock back and forward but helps get the feel for where you need to get the nose and the amount of slack needed to complete roll-up. I'm in no way proficient at them but I find from a good stall I can get the rock down but end up either hitting the roll too early or choking it off due to not enough slack, the following helped get the feel for the timing and slack needed.

Practice on the ground. Land the kite and while sitting on both wingtips pull slowly on the lines to bring the nose forward, as the kite starts to fall into the dreaded "No Launch" position give that sweep (pop) back followed by beaucoup slack (hmmm... I've obviously never typed that phrase before, even the spell check couldn't decipher it  Wink  means a whole bunch) and let the kite roll up. I need a lunge forward with most kites to get enough slack.

Another benefit of practicing this way is you've killed two birds with one stone/trick, if you let the kite land nose forward after rolling up you've learned to land the kite in a stable position where you can lay your lines down and walk away in all but high winds, it won't launch itself. To launch just take a step or two back and unroll the kite right onto the wingtips ready for launch.

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tpatter
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 12:12 PM »

Once you give the little pop to bring the nose forward, you need some slack in order to allow the kite to pitch forward, otherwise, it will just fly off.  Not too much however, since you want to catch the kite once forward and then throw it backwards for the yoyo.

This trick in particular, for me, took some time to get the feel for it in order to make it reliable.

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fidelio
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 02:46 PM »

to me it's a real feel and finesse thing to get the nose to rock forward, but when it fails on me, it's usually because i don't give enough slack after the nose starts to come forward. it also seems to be more of a rocking motion than something forceful, for me at least.

the strength of the inputs and amount of slack also seem very kite dependent. think about the flic-flac. from the fade position some kites take a much more forceful input to come 'off the shelf' and creates a fair bit of slack as the kite 'falls' down into the flare, but then don't take much input or slack to return them from the flare, to the fade. however, on another kite it may barely take any input to get the kite to fall 'off the shelf' and into the flare but take huge amounts of slack after a more forceful input to get them back up. in my quiver the kites which match these descriptions would be the nirvana for the former, and the deep space for the latter.

i mention this for two reasons. it points out how different two kites can be in input and feel which isn't necessarily evident from the kite movement from viewing, and getting the nose to come forward in an upright position is a bit similar to the second part of the flic-flac. the thing to think about here though; if your kite failed to return to the fade in a flic-flac but instead flew off pointing toward the ground, the fix for that situation, is the start of the fix for this one.

also if you think about the legs of the bridle which are active, when rocking the nose back it would be the top legs, and when you pull to sweep it would be the bottom legs. the distance from normal flying where all the legs are active would be less in the 'tipping' and more in the 'sweeping' if that makes sense. so if your kite were on the ground, it would take more slack to have the nose forward laying on the ground than it would to tip the nose halfway back when the kite is sitting on the wingtips.

anyway, enough blabbering from me. hopefully you'll find a crumb of something useful which helps.
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jaybett
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 06:22 PM »

I'm muddling my way through this trick.

The kite that has helped me, learn this trick has been the Talon UL. The kite flies and tricks slowly, so I can really see, how my inputs effect the trick.

In light winds I walk forward, as the kite flies up the window, about two thirds of the way up, I push my hands forward and pop my wrists to get the front flip. The nose comes forward between twenty and thirty degrees, when I give the sweep.

Our local expert spent time learning what I think are called flip flops, just like a flic-flac, but the flare is over rotated, to where the kite is three quarters of the way on its back, then the kite is pulled back into a fade.

The move got translated so it starts as a 90 degree front flip, the lines are swept, the kite does three quarters of a roll up and then is pulled back into a front flip. Shawn Tinkham demonstrated this move in the Vendetta video.

From there, the move got translated again, when a kite goes into a turtle, it will eventually fall out and return to a nose up position. Instead of letting the kite fall out of the turtle, a step forward is taken, and the kite is put into a front flip.

Hope this helps,

Jay 

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jaydub
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2011, 01:00 PM »

Thanks guys for your input.

Spent some time with Mike Fogg on Wednesday in less than ideal conditions (1-4 mph with odd gusts significantly higher and from every direction you could imagine until 3 pm and then an onshore 12 -14 mph almost immediately thereafter).

After a bit of guidance from Mike, we managed to sort out where I was going wrong and have at least improved the success rate in getting the front flip so most of the time I'm now achieving at least 45 degrees forward and also getting a much higher proportion of full front flips.

Far from perfect yet, but I'm at least at the stage where I need to tweak technique rather than worrying about why it won't rotate forwards.

Hopefully more practice in better winds will enable me to improve the front flip and then work on the timing for the roll up move.

(The conclusion we came to is the DS needs a fairly aggressive short, sharp input to bring the nose a long way forward (as can be seen on Trick or Treat) and doesn't seem to respond as well to the more subtle input as demonstrated by Randy G in his Yoyo short.)
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Bob D
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 03:59 AM »

Once you get it to roll up, push it back into a turtle, give it a spin to lazy susan, and you got a Lewis! Duals are just too cool!
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Bob D.
jaydub
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2011, 02:12 PM »

Can manage the lazy bit of the Lewis once I get the yoyo.  It's the yoyo bit I need to sort out.

It's been very windy over here since my last post, so I've only managed to fly a few times and in nothing less than 10mph, so not ideal.  The front flip is improving though, in spite of the conditions.
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