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Author Topic: Help !! Obi, John W.,RandyG,RobB... Please analyze this video..  (Read 3448 times)
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vertigo2u
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« on: August 22, 2011, 07:59 AM »

If you guys could give me some input.  I think I am going from the fade to turtle to the roll up ?? Not sure how it works but I am duplicating the move so I know it's working what ever it is >>.   Started working the turtle then the lazy susan back to fade then turtle.  Then the lines seem wrap around and when I pull they unroll Huh  around 5 minute area..... I am So Confused... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  Help !!!!!! I think I am on the verge but don't fully understand it... All comments are welcome.  Need to have this looking good by next week...

Roll up's.wmv
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 09:16 AM »

Nice video! I think it's awesome to post videos of your practice for the purpose of getting some help. This is what I used to do in my classes. Watch, evaluate and then give some pointers. Let's see if I can remember how...

If I may, it seems to me that you need a cleaner Turtle before your pull for the rotating turtle.

 Your kite looks like one of those that takes time  to settle into the turtle with that method and when it does, the nose is really pointing down (belly away from you) (in those winds speed anyway), and you are allowing the kite to do that, but your tug for the rotating portion seems to a bit too abrupt, causing the kite to over rotate and the nose comes forward, another words it begins to wrap up at the point. Have you ever tried the one handed pull set up? For example, fly the kite just to the left of center of the window, nose up, keep left hand in position, tug right and step forward. I usually start the step before the movement to help reduce pressure in the sail.

The kite will go into a turtle, a fast turtle so as soon the kite clearly settled into the turtle, and it will go fast, tug. It is almost like one smooth move. It is what I do to begin the jacobs ladder usually. This movement is also known as a snap turtle, can be done at many flying angles. It is also the first movement of some 540 tricks. I sincerely hope that helps. Best wishes, Dodd
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zippy8
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 09:59 AM »

If you guys could give me some input.
Just FYI....

This video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

It's also 6 minutes long I see.

If you or anyone else wants specific advice about a specific bit of flying, would it not be to your advantage to let everyone see it and attempt not to outstay any welcome that might be extended ? Brevity is a virtue. And if you make it short then there'll be less reason to stick someone else's music on it too.

HTH

Mike.
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vertigo2u
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 10:10 AM »

Zippy I didn't knowit was blocked....how do I unblock it..go to Vimeo Huh


Trying to do jacob's ladder but found the lines wrapping.  So I figure to learn the roll..like I said ..I am confused as to what I amdoing... Norm I am trying to roll it  up I think...
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 11:13 AM »

What's happening next week?
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Allen, AKA kitehead
vertigo2u
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 01:16 PM »

Norm, your beautiful...Where is the "little creep-o" when U need him ?  He took off for school this past week-end in Chicago..........  Wants to be a Music Major get a Phd.  How many clerks at a kite store have Phd.'s Huh  Jon could set the kid up with a 401K... He'd have a future.   Instead he leaves me after a fanstatic fun summer to figure out this move by myself...before my Solus arrives next week.
Just when your having a good time....  Lips sealed

 The Little Creep-O ................ Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

When do the linbes wrap..during the pancake to turtle Huh do they roll over the kite.. I am lost as to figure that part out...
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RobB
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 07:41 PM »

Hey Joe...

Wow... your first bit of advice from a pilot that I have a great deal of respect for, and is responsible for giving me a good start on my road to tricking. His advice is gold, but my problem is remembering advice like that when I get back out to the field, and actually try to implement it. Read it many times, slowly, memorize it, and visualize it when you're going to sleep.
After watching your video twice, the thing that strikes me the most about your flying is that it is very similar to my own a few years ago. I flew for a number of years just for fun, looping, stalling, sliding and figure 8ing before I ever saw any slack line tricks. The biggest thing about my flying back then was keeping the kite from crashing, which meant stepping back when the going got rough. Stepping forward to give slack goes against this learned reaction, and it's a thing that you're going to have to un-learn. I notice that when you get the kite into a turtle, you start stepping back as you give the rotation input. This leads to unexpected behavior, and ultimately the tip wraps that you had in the third minute or your video. Just about all of the tricks that I saw in the video would benifit from a step or two towards the kite as you execute the trick.
Here are my notes from viewing the video...

0:45 turtle-->lazy, walk forwards, not back

1:45 good 540 w/ enough slack

2:05 nice axel, good slack

3:20--->3:50 not enough slack = tip wraps...

5:15 didn't even see how you got wrapped to get the unroll.

5:29 same...

Want to hear something funny ? Once you get the roll-up input down, you'll start to struggle with the un-roll.  Grin

Please take this all in the best way, just trying to be helpful, seeing you go through the same things that I've been going through in the last few years. The others here reading this, and giving advice are the people that I learned from, and this is how I've learned so far. Keep it up, I think you've made big progress over the summer, and by this time next year, this will all seem second nature.

~Rob.


BTW... here's some reading that might help... helped me. Print it & read it when you get a chance.

http://prismkites.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174937596

http://prismkites.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1213804807

http://prismkites.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1221176797

http://prismkites.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1213810335

http://prismkites.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1213804747

Good stuff !  Wink
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 07:48 PM by RobB » Logged

timothymcmackin
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 04:47 AM »

Joe, I like your videos -- you have a graceful style that's fun to watch.

I've been working on yo-yo tricks, but from a different angle. I'm not nearly as good with the turtle as you show that you are; instead, I'm trying to roll up as I come out of a fade. So I get into a stable fade, lateral roll out of it, and pop both lines hard and run forward for slack so the kite rolls up. The problem is timing: too late with the pop and the kite is already rolling away from me so my pull doesn't have any effect; too early and the kite isn't oriented the right way as it rolls, so I don't catch the yo-yo stoppers. This is the technique that Norm mentions.

Here's a rough video from my cell-phone camera. Spoiler alert: I finally get a good one at the end, but I still can't get this trick to work more than once in 20+ attempts. Any tips?

Learning to fruit roll-up a stunt kite


-Tim
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Shane
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 05:34 AM »

Timothy,

  I am not a pro by any means.. but I think what might help you is... when you are in the fade position... it is very difficult to get the kite to backspin when the kite is flat... you need to kinda rock it so the kite is uneven... then when the kite is on it's way back to being even pull the low wing on it's way up... so.. if (when in fade position) the left wing is lower than the right and back on it's way to being flat then you would pull your right hand to backspin... and visa-versa. if the right wing is the low one and on it's way back to even. then pull your left hand... When the kite is already going in the direction you want it to go before you make the tug it helps the kite get through the rotation properly.

  I hope this helps ...

   Shane
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obijuankenobe
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 06:37 AM »

I can't watch the vid as it's blocked for copyrights.

obi
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RonG
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 07:10 AM »

Joe................It would help everybody to know what trick you are wanting to accomplish
I thought you were wanting to do a roll up.

That would be my question.  What is it you're trying to do?  

If you're trying to complete a jacob's ladder but the kite is wrapping when you're trying to rotate from turtle back to fade, then your problem is essentially timing and slack management.  There are kites that just let you bang out the 1/2 lazy rotation any which way, then just yank to pull it back around to fade - and many more that require a bit more finesse.  Some kites (like yours) that don't settle into a deep, stable turtle need to be coaxed from turtle to fade.  In most cases you don't let the kite rotate to a full, nose-away turtle before tweaking the lines to pop back to fade - you do it while the kite is still rotating and not all the way there yet.

Of course all of the above assumes you're attempting a jacobs ladder.  Let us know exactly what trick or combo you're after.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 09:49 AM »

Tim,

I think that you are hitting it too early and too hard.   Wait until the kite is level before you pop/slack for the yoyo.  You also want to pop both sides with equal strength and then be ready to apply tension to catch the stoppers after the kite pitches.

It's more of a speed than a power thing.  It does not take too much of a pop or slack even to do a yoyo that way on the Z.  If you give too much slack then you will not be able to easily take the excess back in order to catch the yoyo stoppers and maintain control of the kite.

Looks good - practice some more with some fine tuning and you will have it.

Tom

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vertigo2u
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 07:27 PM »

Wow talk about info...You have No idea how this site has helped today... on scale of 1-10 honestly a 10.   
Norm hit the nail on the head with my hand action and everything started to change.  Turtle's... I read about my foot work.  Well I figured that one time Obi and John Weldon and RobB recommended I stop pulling my arms back while I started the 540's and running forward like a wounded duck.  ( you guys were more kind)... Cheesy .  So I started to think about foot work moving in.  instead of moving backward. Rob said to create.slack as I moved forward.  Things changed.  Didn't crash as usual.  Then as I did a turtle.  I extended my arm to the right straight out.  and the turtle turned into a fade...  Huh.  Thanks to Norm.  I didn't get any video worth anything.  I forgot Tripod.  But I did accomplish a few things.  I did single lazy susan's at will.  Finally.  ( Hey Norm it was easy hehehe).  Then I did a number of Multi-lazies.  Actually had four in a row.  Felt the tension as I popped em'.  Started to watch the kite as it came around and POP !! It was fun.. Then I started woprking the fade as much as I could.  Having some problems holding it.  Going to change kites and try.  It the video of the new SOLUS.  I actually did two nice fade's with the SOLUS.  They went real nice my first try.  The wind was almost gone and I was half way in the parking lot at our fly place.

So I will try another kite and work the fade.  At one time I did Turtle to fade to turtle and almost rolled it up.  Got scared... Cheesy Cheesy

btw anyone know a kid named "little-creep-o".  A run a way street urchin who is away at school learning to play " God rest ye' merry gentlemen" for Xmas in Chicago.  Who needs the litttle creep-o's advise.... not me.. Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Wink

Big Thanks guys.  Let's get me better.  Vertigo Out !!
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 11:13 PM »

If you are in fact trying to do a Jacobs Ladder then the kite will unroll between the Half Lazy while going to the Fade, that's how it should be. Anything else and you didn't give slack in the Lazy and kept the lines on top of the kite thus doing a Half Lazy directly into a Fade, that's wrong and not easily repeatable since the lines will almost always catch a wingtip, if they somehow miss the wingtip they'll probably get hung up on the yo-yo stops next. Slack, both hands during the Half Lazy, that puts the lines going backward over the spreaders around the trailing edge and under the kite back to you, thus the unroll when you pull to the Fade. The proper progression for a Jacobs Ladder is Turtle to Half Lazy (which ends in a Fade position but with lines wrapped) to an unroll to a Fade, then a Half Barrel Roll to Turtle finishes it up.

You can enter the Jacobs Ladder like Dodd said with a Snap Lazy but you're doing OK with the straight up to Turtle to Lazy so work with what you know and clean that up first. I've seen you do all the pieces of the Jacobs Ladder but the Half Lazy to Fade in your video's and it does unroll so can the confusion, you're doing it right. Now it's just a matter of stringing them all together with no pauses between, a good Jacobs Ladder flows smoothly from beginning to end, then flows right into the next rung.

Here's my take on the Jacobs Ladder, although it's another trick I can maybe help with the dynamics, but I invariably blow it at the last step and don't often get more then one rung. The trick is all about line management, it needs plenty of slack in some parts but too much and you won't be able to take it up fast enough when needed.

I notice you could work a bit on the Turtle entry, fly straight up arms down at your sides or slightly behind, then a quick snap of the wrists followed by slack and a step forward as needed will put it on its back, then catch any excess slack to keep the kite from rocking or possibly doing a full roll-up. Same thing Devin told you to get into the Flare for the 540, snap then slack. Some kites won't hold a Turtle long and you'll have to hit them quick for the Lazy Susan or Half Lazy, your Widowmaker will hold it all day though with the right tension. No walking backward needed here as noted, the kite will lose altitude, expect that and start high enough. To do the Half Lazy I find that a wrist pop or smooth gentle one arm pull followed by slack will get all the inertia needed for the half rotation you're looking for, remember slack on the off hand too, you need plenty of slack here to let the lines get pulled all the way to the back by the trailing edge. Too hard of an input to start the Half Lazy and you'll be rotating too fast at the half rotation point making timing for the next step critical, a nice slow Lazy that is slowing or stops at a half rotation is all you need (I love a slow floaty Jacobs Ladder). Once the nose is pointed directly at you pull smoothly and evenly with both hands to start the Unroll to Fade, you may even need a step back here depending on the wind or kite. As the kite goes nose down though you need to give slack back again with both hands to allow the kite to finish the rotation into the Fade, catch that slack to get a stable Fade. Others have given instructions for the Fade Roll-out and I've seen you do them, but a one hand pull on the lower wing while keeping the other hand in position will get you a smooth roll-out. While the kite is in that Roll-out (Half Barrel Roll) you need to get your hands back even and midway out front again and take up the slack if the wind hasn't moved the kite back a little, once the kite rolls to the belly down nose at you position a two handed pull or pop followed quickly by slack will put it back into the Turtle again ready for the next rung (that's where I blow it, I either have too much slack to get the pop or I'm too slow giving the slack back and choke off the Turtle).

« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 11:30 PM by mikenchico » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 11:12 AM »

Just read all the article's that Rob posted.  Then read Mike's post.  Man do they match up nicely in my mind.  Norm gave me some great input I am working and what I read and Mike said goes hand in hand with Norm's help.  I really liked the first article.  Just reading it helped put things into a better perspective. From a beginner's stand point.  1000 hours of learning.  I'd say that says it all. I didn't video everyday this season but I have 67 different files of vid's.  watched my early axel's in April yesterday... Huh what was that ?? Roll Eyes
I sucked... Cheesy.  Not really just needed more flying hours... I spent last year landing...taking off and SNAP STALLS.  All summer.  watching axels and 540's and jacob's and turtles and lazies and I am Snap What !!!  I loved the article on Snap Stalls.  ( Thanks Rob).. So if I flew say minimum of 85/ 90 times this season @ 3.5 hrs. per= Got a long way to go... Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed Embarrassed Embarrassed
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