Help !! Obi, John W.,RandyG,RobB... Please analyze this video..

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[vertigo2u]

Wow talk about info...You have No idea how this site has helped today... on scale of 1-10 honestly a 10.   
Norm hit the nail on the head with my hand action and everything started to change.  Turtle's... I read about my foot work.  Well I figured that one time Obi and John Weldon and RobB recommended I stop pulling my arms back while I started the 540's and running forward like a wounded duck.  ( you guys were more kind)... .  So I started to think about foot work moving in.  instead of moving backward. Rob said to create.slack as I moved forward.  Things changed.  Didn't crash as usual.  Then as I did a turtle.  I extended my arm to the right straight out.  and the turtle turned into a fade...  .  Thanks to Norm.  I didn't get any video worth anything.  I forgot Tripod.  But I did accomplish a few things.  I did single lazy susan's at will.  Finally.  ( Hey Norm it was easy hehehe).  Then I did a number of Multi-lazies.  Actually had four in a row.  Felt the tension as I popped em'.  Started to watch the kite as it came around and POP !! It was fun.. Then I started woprking the fade as much as I could.  Having some problems holding it.  Going to change kites and try.  It the video of the new SOLUS.  I actually did two nice fade's with the SOLUS.  They went real nice my first try.  The wind was almost gone and I was half way in the parking lot at our fly place.

So I will try another kite and work the fade.  At one time I did Turtle to fade to turtle and almost rolled it up.  Got scared...

btw anyone know a kid named "little-creep-o".  A run a way street urchin who is away at school learning to play " God rest ye' merry gentlemen" for Xmas in Chicago.  Who needs the litttle creep-o's advise.... not me..

Big Thanks guys.  Let's get me better.  Vertigo Out !!

[mikenchico]

If you are in fact trying to do a Jacobs Ladder then the kite will unroll between the Half Lazy while going to the Fade, that's how it should be. Anything else and you didn't give slack in the Lazy and kept the lines on top of the kite thus doing a Half Lazy directly into a Fade, that's wrong and not easily repeatable since the lines will almost always catch a wingtip, if they somehow miss the wingtip they'll probably get hung up on the yo-yo stops next. Slack, both hands during the Half Lazy, that puts the lines going backward over the spreaders around the trailing edge and under the kite back to you, thus the unroll when you pull to the Fade. The proper progression for a Jacobs Ladder is Turtle to Half Lazy (which ends in a Fade position but with lines wrapped) to an unroll to a Fade, then a Half Barrel Roll to Turtle finishes it up.

You can enter the Jacobs Ladder like Dodd said with a Snap Lazy but you're doing OK with the straight up to Turtle to Lazy so work with what you know and clean that up first. I've seen you do all the pieces of the Jacobs Ladder but the Half Lazy to Fade in your video's and it does unroll so can the confusion, you're doing it right. Now it's just a matter of stringing them all together with no pauses between, a good Jacobs Ladder flows smoothly from beginning to end, then flows right into the next rung.

Here's my take on the Jacobs Ladder, although it's another trick I can maybe help with the dynamics, but I invariably blow it at the last step and don't often get more then one rung. The trick is all about line management, it needs plenty of slack in some parts but too much and you won't be able to take it up fast enough when needed.

I notice you could work a bit on the Turtle entry, fly straight up arms down at your sides or slightly behind, then a quick snap of the wrists followed by slack and a step forward as needed will put it on its back, then catch any excess slack to keep the kite from rocking or possibly doing a full roll-up. Same thing Devin told you to get into the Flare for the 540, snap then slack. Some kites won't hold a Turtle long and you'll have to hit them quick for the Lazy Susan or Half Lazy, your Widowmaker will hold it all day though with the right tension. No walking backward needed here as noted, the kite will lose altitude, expect that and start high enough. To do the Half Lazy I find that a wrist pop or smooth gentle one arm pull followed by slack will get all the inertia needed for the half rotation you're looking for, remember slack on the off hand too, you need plenty of slack here to let the lines get pulled all the way to the back by the trailing edge. Too hard of an input to start the Half Lazy and you'll be rotating too fast at the half rotation point making timing for the next step critical, a nice slow Lazy that is slowing or stops at a half rotation is all you need (I love a slow floaty Jacobs Ladder). Once the nose is pointed directly at you pull smoothly and evenly with both hands to start the Unroll to Fade, you may even need a step back here depending on the wind or kite. As the kite goes nose down though you need to give slack back again with both hands to allow the kite to finish the rotation into the Fade, catch that slack to get a stable Fade. Others have given instructions for the Fade Roll-out and I've seen you do them, but a one hand pull on the lower wing while keeping the other hand in position will get you a smooth roll-out. While the kite is in that Roll-out (Half Barrel Roll) you need to get your hands back even and midway out front again and take up the slack if the wind hasn't moved the kite back a little, once the kite rolls to the belly down nose at you position a two handed pull or pop followed quickly by slack will put it back into the Turtle again ready for the next rung (that's where I blow it, I either have too much slack to get the pop or I'm too slow giving the slack back and choke off the Turtle).

[vertigo2u]

Just read all the article's that Rob posted.  Then read Mike's post.  Man do they match up nicely in my mind.  Norm gave me some great input I am working and what I read and Mike said goes hand in hand with Norm's help.  I really liked the first article.  Just reading it helped put things into a better perspective. From a beginner's stand point.  1000 hours of learning.  I'd say that says it all. I didn't video everyday this season but I have 67 different files of vid's.  watched my early axel's in April yesterday... what was that ??
I sucked... .  Not really just needed more flying hours... I spent last year landing...taking off and SNAP STALLS.  All summer.  watching axels and 540's and jacob's and turtles and lazies and I am Snap What !!!  I loved the article on Snap Stalls.  ( Thanks Rob).. So if I flew say minimum of 85/ 90 times this season @ 3.5 hrs. per= Got a long way to go...

[NormP]

The proper progression for a Jacobs Ladder is Turtle to Half Lazy (which ends in a Fade position but with lines wrapped) to an unroll to a Fade, then a Half Barrel Roll to Turtle finishes it up.

Sorry Mike I'm going to have to disagree with you. 
1. Kite to fade (anyway you can get it there)
2. Half backspin/I call it a Lateral Roll Out (right or left rotation)
3. Pop back to Turtle position
4. Half Lazy Susan (left or right rotation)
5. Unroll back into fade position.

[mikenchico]

Got me there Norm, yep starts from the fade ... no wonder I can't do them 

[RonG]

Since it's a continuous trick, you can start it from any position, just be sure to alternate directions.

Yeah.

Makes no difference at all which position in the trick you start at.

Because there are so many kite positions involved in the JL, it's a handy trick to string together with other stuff.

[NormP]

Since it's a continuous trick, you can start it from any position, just be sure to alternate directions.

Yeah.

Makes no difference at all which position in the trick you start at.

Because there are so many kite positions involved in the JL, it's a handy trick to string together with other stuff.

Only making reference to the instructions  HERE

[NormP]

Got me there Norm, yep starts from the fade ... no wonder I can't do them 

In all honesty Mike I think you would have a better success rate starting and ending in a Fade. It's a lot more stable platform to work from than a half-lazy.
By that I mean: I can drink a beer whiling holding a Fade.    Can you drink one and hold a Half Lazy?   

[Shane]

The easiest starting I have found is from a Fractured Axel to Fade... because it already has the proper motion going...

[NormP]

The easiest starting I have found is from a Fractured Axel to Fade... because it already has the proper motion going...

99% of the time the fractured axel is my entry to a fade. This learning process is for Joe and I seen in his video he can do a pancake to a fade. I thought it would be his best starting point. So, I'm still working as best as I can for Joe and I am still recommending he starts from the fade. The rest of you can probably do them blind folded. 
In fact it looked like Randy was blind folded when he was flying the Machine. 
 

[RobB]

Doing the JL blindfolded is kite dependent... I can do them all day long on the Sea Devils, but other kites are a struggle to get even 3 rungs. And then to get the proper R-L-R-L rotations    It's a rare day when my mind is that clear !   

[tpatter]

Half axel to fade entry for my $.  Looks super clean..... 

[vertigo2u]

I don't care what anyone says U guys are the greatest...  I have been working from the fade.  I have practiced holding the fade longer.  I watched some great video's also.  Norm has helped a lot.  I saw Rob's video today also.  I through my arms out from my waist.  I saw Rob bring his hands in on his side.  I bring them in close together. I tried to work it tonight but wind was almost zero.  I had to fly Ocious sul..sucked.  Those video's that Norm posted are Really nice.  I appreciate all the help guys please keep it up.   I want to achieve a couple things.  Norm showed me some hand movements and suddenly I am doing multi-lazie's.. ( the little creep-o before he abandoned his friends showed me how to snap it before I pop it into a turtle. Norm showed me the hand movement.  I was pulling across my body...ALL SUMMER IT WAS A BUMMER>>>  Popped four in a row yesterday. 

I am on my way to learning Jacob's ladder.. Also I am going into a fade roll over and going for a roll up.  Had a few wraps and not afraid to learn anymore.  They really look cool.. .  So the goal is four fold.. Turtle...Lazy Susan, Multi-Lazies,roll up then put them together...

It's August 25th.... Have to have them by mid-September...We did the 540 in a week... You guys have made me better keep it up...


   Do weights in tail make a difference???  Also I have decided to try different kites .  Also I need to spend time on shorter lines...  Foot work ?? entry's any thing else anyone can think of. 

Between the article's Rob posted and the Video's Norm just posted.  A ton of Great info for beginner or pro... Thanks guys.

[adx1592]

Hey Joe. Stuffs been crazy busy sofar here so I haven't gotten a chance to email you yet, sorry.

Been keeping up with your posts. Not once, all summer, even when you were beginning to understand them, did you ever pull across your body on wednesdays? Not sure where that came from but as you figured it out, it's not necessary.

Tail weight or no tail weight, just do it on the kite you're comfortable. For you try the WMs or the Solus' (assuming you have them?) and just start experimenting. Don't think just do. Every time we say that it seems to click for you but during the week, goes away (as we've talked about) and then comes back.  The more you begin to over analyze something the harder it becomes (from my experience). It's literally just a rotation-based turtle (multilazy). Think of it in super simple terms. Just when you get that nose down in a turtle, snap it around and continue beginning to feel where that 2nd pull is- if it's to late or to early the rotation goes haywire or the kite falls out of it. Beginning to realize the difference between a clean one and what is just listed won't be that hard but feeling it out for a bit will be. This is another thing that I've always thought about- tutorials sometimes slow the kite down during the trick. Well, that isn't going to happen when you're flying. So why bother trying to over analyze/identify that that specific moment, especially in slow motion? Just feel it out and see where it takes you. Trial and error has been extremely educational in my 15 (holy crap...) years of flying and I've learned what TO do during something, but a ton on what NOT to do, which is a lot more effective (for me) when learning other tricks too. While it's a pain in the beginning (heck, what sport/hobby isn't?) it'll pay off in the long run.

Happy tricking, and I'll try to get in touch with you soon. CCPA threw a concerto on us for our auditions not to long ago so I've been working up the Gordon Jacob Concerto and doing some mock auditions. I'll get in touch asap.

LittleCreep-o

[JimB]

From the TP USA Trick Definitions .pdf:


Jacob’s Ladder  [Ours des Prairies] Group 4, Video Footage: A, B, C, D, E
The JACOB’S LADDER is a continuous series of transitions between a half BACKSPIN rotation and a half LAZY
SUSAN. Each “rung” of the ladder consists of one set of the two alternating rotations. The direction of the
rotations does not matter. The trick is entered from either a FADE or a TURTLE. If it is entered from a FADE (belly
up, nose toward the pilot), the kite is rotated approximately 180° so that it is belly up, nose away as in a TURTLE,
but with the lines still over the leading edges and coming from under the kite. The kite is then rolled on the pitch
axis so that the nose swings down and around a full 360°, into a true TURTLE. The kite is then rotated
approximately 180°, so that it is belly up, nose toward the pilot as in a FADE, but with the lines still over the
trailing edge and coming from underneath. Finally the kite is rolled again on the pitch axis so that the nose
swings up and around a full 360°, into a true FADE. This entire sequence constitutes one full rung of JACOB’S
LADDER. (If the trick is entered from a TURTLE, it starts with a half LAZY SUSAN and the alternating sequence
continues as just described.) The kite must complete three full rungs of the ladder. The smoothness of the
transitions between positions is crucial to the quality of the trick. The method and direction of entry and exit do
not matter.
KEY ELEMENTS: ►Minimum 3 full rungs.

Since it's a continuous trick, you can start it from any position, just be sure to alternate directions.

Yeah.

Makes no difference at all which position in the trick you start at.

Because there are so many kite positions involved in the JL, it's a handy trick to string together with other stuff.

Only making reference to the instructions  HERE

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