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Author Topic: Lines snagging around wing tips  (Read 2101 times)
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B-13
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« on: September 02, 2011, 08:52 AM »

Hello all,

starting some tricks on my hypnotist after mastering my stalls and landings. Now i am trying some axels but haven't got the perfect timing and input to get it right. kite tends to rotate on itself instead of going on it's belly and rotate on it's axel.
Other big issue i have is the lines twisting/snagging around my wind tips whether i try a back spin or recovery from a position where the kite is on the ground on it's belly, nose away from me.
what i do is give a pop and it will raise 1-2 feet off the ground,i pull on one line to rotate it (left or right) it will land in a relaunch position but one of the lines always get stuck in one wing tip.
What i am doing wrong? to much pop or not enough slack on the other line?  Sad
Thanks to help anyone
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 09:32 AM »

Sounds like you're having fun though!

If the kite isn't going belly down into an axle it's not stalled properly. Needs to be Not Flying. At all. Dropping is best for starters. The other thing that will stop it from going flat is not enough slack with the opposite hand. One hand goes back to tug while the other hand goes forward for slack.

Any time the kite is spinning on its belly, line management is critical, but gets easier after some time. You need to make sure both lines go slack enough so the kite can move above them without snagging. Too much slack ad regaining control is tricky. The real flat spin masters seem to always have tension on one line, but it's more like just barely enough slack to get the job done while staying as in touch with the kite as possible.

When learning things like axels, throw a lot of slack at the kite and see what happens. If the initial setup and tug are OK, the kite will spin around easily with nothing to hinder it. The outcome might be messy, but once you get a sense of how much slack is needed for the kite and wind speed, you can reduce the slack until the kite snags and then increase it a bit and bingo. Then the wind will change...

Keep in mind, this isn't a one afternoon "Oh now I get it" kind of thing. Lots and lots of failure and ugly  semi-success until you really understand it (or your hands do).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 09:35 AM by Allen Carter » Logged

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mikenchico
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 01:21 PM »

Took me forever to do my first Axel, well actually I did my first rather quickly while the guy who was letting me fly his Psycho stood next to me and gave me instructions, took forever to do the second one on my own. Here's how he taught me.

Do it at the edge of the wind window in a natural stall rather then a forced one. Fly the kite level all the way to the edge, lets say to the right hand side here, until it stops moving forward. Once stalled push slightly with your right hand (lower wing) to start the kite in a slow turn to nose up, alternately you can pull gently with your left to start the turn up. You just want a very slow turn to nose up here. As the nose just reaches or passes the straight up position give a small forward push with the right hand followed quickly by the tug/pop on the same right hand to initiate the Axel. Immediately follow that tug by throwing your left in front of you, it needs to be in motion while the the right is still moving backward, then get your right hand moving forward until both hands are out in front of you, take a step forward if the wind is higher and it's needed. The kite should drop its nose at you and do a full rotation, as the nose is coming back toward you bring your hands back in to bring the nose up and fly away.

Wingtip Wraps were my best trick while learning the Axel, You have to get that non initiating hand moving forward to get the line slacked and dropping down out of the way. Then get the initiating hand out front right after the tug/pop. Another thing I found helpful is to always initiate the Axel on the wing that is slightly higher, to get it higher give that small push with the initiating hand before the tug. I use that small push-then-pop most of the time, you'll need that movement when you start learning the Half Axel/Kick Turn only exaggerated, might as well get the habit now.

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 09:47 PM »

Bookmarked.

Thanks Mike and Allen, this is really good stuff!
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 11:39 PM »

I had two tipwraps yesterday and I've been flying 13 years. In both cases I was being lazy and sloppy and the kite told me so with a tipwrap. It's sort of like the kites BS detector.   Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2011, 12:24 AM »

Heck if you don't get a tip wrap now & then you're working too hard to be having fun  Wink
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B-13
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 02:23 AM »

Mike and Allen, i thank you for the tips.
I will try these on next flight. For the wing tips issues, perhaps not enough slack from me.
Also do you think starting an axel in a nose pointing 45deg is easier than one having nose straight up?
Bryan
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Gardner
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2011, 09:36 AM »

This may be fudging some on the tip wrap cure. Take a step or two forward  while the kite is making its revolution.
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Wayner
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 03:01 PM »

Here is another idea.
I was flying one of my old school kites (flying wings UFO) which has a trick line.

This was great for solving tip wraps. Very different input from modern kites. All but one of my tip wrap unwrapped while still in the air. The one I had on the ground was easily resolve. So 8 or 9 tip wraps and no walk of shame.

Maybe adding a trick line is something you want to add until your skills increase?
I don't know if their is any negitive effect if added to you kite.

   
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B-13
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 04:54 AM »

Here is another idea.
I was flying one of my old school kites (flying wings UFO) which has a trick line.

This was great for solving tip wraps. Very different input from modern kites. All but one of my tip wrap unwrapped while still in the air. The one I had on the ground was easily resolve. So 8 or 9 tip wraps and no walk of shame.

Maybe adding a trick line is something you want to add until your skills increase?
I don't know if their is any negitive effect if added to you kite.

Thanks for this idea.and how do we add this?
Anyone get a guide on how to install a guide line on the prism hypnotist?

Thanks
Bryan

   
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Danno419
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 11:43 AM »

i believe it would just be a piece of line going from wing tip to spine to opposite wing tip.
as far as line strength - i'm not sure.
I could be totally wrong, as i have no kite with a trick line.
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Wayner
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 12:58 PM »

This is a light piece of line that is attach to each wing tip and passes through the base of spine at slotted end cap (hope the Hopnotist has a this to allow the line to pass through).

You would attach this line to leading edge tensioning line (and put underneath the end cap if possible). Then run through the slotted end cap at the base of the spine. Then attach to the opposite leading edge.


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mikenchico
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 01:37 PM »

I typed it all up using Dorsal Caps and 100 lb Bridle line, all available from Steve here at GWTW/Chico Kites but my remote ISP booted me and lost it, others have given a good idea so I won't repeat all that. But I will put in my last thoughts.

First: If you want to try it be very careful that the line is not under any tension, many of the kites back when they were used also used the trick line to add some curve to the leading edge, those did not fly correctly if you removed it. Todays designs will not fly correctly if you add any curve to the leading edge with a too tight trick line.

Second: Unless you also take it to the trailing edge and connect it to the stand-offs it will kill any Turtle based (Back-flip) tricks and any chance of rolling the kite up properly and you will likely break a lower leading edge spar if you do roll the kite up unless the line goes to the stand-offs.

Better solution : I would just contact Steve and see if he has any Dorsal Caps in stock that will work on your kite. What they are are some longer heavier end caps you can put over the wingtip nocks to cover them, the tensioning line and knots, That'll help the lines to slide off when you do get a wrap, at least on the ground.

And while your at it see if Steve will tie you up a set of Leaders for your lines, these are just some lengths of 150 lb bridle line you install between your lines and the kite. Being heavier and stiffer you can see them better to see what's happening, they also fall out of the way quicker to avoid wraps, they don't wrap as tightly when you do snag a tip so they release easier and they keep you from cutting up your APA connectors, yo yo stops and trailing edge. All without changing your kites design and flight characteristics.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 01:57 PM by mikenchico » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 04:21 PM »

+3 or 4 for leaders.

3 or 4 because i've chased every trick flyer at the park with a set of leaders, benny hill style.

Benny Hill Chase
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Fdeli
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 08:52 PM »

+3 or 4 for leaders.

3 or 4 because i've chased every trick flyer at the park with a set of leaders, benny hill style.

Benny Hill Chase
Hehe that was classic Fidelio.  thanks for the laugh.
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