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Author Topic: Sound as a substitute for Kinetic and Kinesthetic information  (Read 1715 times)
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Ara Ararauna
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« on: January 15, 2012, 04:36 AM »

Hi,

In my field of work and research I have known for a long time that sound can be a good substitute (or reinforcement) of kinetic and kinesthetic information.

So, as a beginner in kite flying I was today thinking that some of us that have no flying mates around to share direct flying experience are missing the direct feel of the type of kinetic forces that the pilot applies on the kite through the lines, as well as of the kinesthetic feedback that the kite provides to the pilot.

So I was thinking that if we could have good videos with good sound recording of the kite as it is flown into an axel or a half axel or any other trick, it would probably help us a lot and substitute part of what we are lacking.

However, most videos are either silent, or have music that substitute ambient sound. This is a very elegant way of presenting the videos but it is hiding a lot of information to us beginners.

I think many of us would very much appreciate to have videos with good ambient sound to lean more about the forces that need to be applied on the kites during tricks.

What do you all think?
Thanks in advance to anyone that decides to produce such videos  Wink

N.
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DD
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 08:40 AM »

Depending on the kite, you might not get much noise
Maybe something like this would apply better: I do fair amount of road racing and we have been talking certain corner combinations along with throttle/brake pressures and to explain to others the timing we often will "sing" to them. It was even proposed that a set of corners "sounded" like a bit of kc and the sunshine song; "do a little dance"; small left-even smaller right-little bigger left-just a bit bigger right, the tempo and timing did work.  I think there is something to gained in learning the tempo of trick doing something similar. Short light notes for a small pop, longer notes for a longer pulls and volume of note for intensity if pull. It is often hard to describe it in words but out may work in sound.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 09:03 AM »

Hi DD,

Thanks, that's a very interesting approach.

However, what I mean is that (at least with both my kites: Nexus & Soul) when I pull one line to, for example, start an Axel, I hear the sound of the sail (similar to when you wrap the kite away) and the sound also gives me a notion of how the whole structure is shaken.
The thing is that I don't know whether I should be doing it harder/stronger even if the shaking sound of the sail and structure is louder, or whether I should actually be more "gentle". This is why I though the actual sound of the kite would help in grading the strength of the pulls, pops, etc.

I sometimes get the impression I could break the kite from a really strong/sudden  pull, however when I compare the type of movement I get with the intensity of some of the tricks I see in some videos, I think they must be pulling "really, really" hard. So, again, I think that hearing the kite shake during one of those intensive trick sequences would help me tune my pulling...

Cheers,

N.
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chilese
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 09:17 AM »

For a sound "intensified" video to work, the microphone will need to be close to or on the kite.
Perhaps a 30 foot lineset or a remote microphone.

You may be able to get an idea of the timing by clapping your hands whenever you see the line or lines draw taut in a video.
Just a thought.  Smiley
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RobB
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 09:28 AM »

Hey there...

You can 'hear' what a flic-flac sounds like right in the beginning of this video...

Flying the Blue Moon Exile...


Don't waste your time watching the rest, I ruined it with music.  Grin

Most of the time I put music in because the wind doesn't sound good, and I think a good tune makes a video more watchable.


~Rob.
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kenmcneill
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2012, 09:33 AM »

A bit of raw footage, before the music was added.  I agree, I also like to hear the sound of the kite.
Video and flying courtesy of Dave Smith.

exileday2.wmv
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2012, 10:01 AM »

Excellent RobB & kenmcneill !!!!

Especially this last one sounds great!
See, that makes all the difference. The sound tells me quite well I should be "slapping" the kite a little more brusquely and that I should not be afraid of pulling hard.

Of course a remote microphone would be great chilese, but if the flying is not too high up in the air, by only placing the microphone on the floor at the center of the window where most of the tricks are done and where all the pulls'n'pops are executed the sound could be captured pretty well. Of course the microphone would benefit from an anti-wind hood (I don't know what the technical audio jargon is...) so that wind does not distort the sounds of the kite.

I don't know about anyone else's opinion on this, but this last video has already helped me a lot! Thanks!
(It also makes me feel closer to "real" pilots since I'm flying alone here...) *sniff, sniff*   Wink

Cheers,

N.
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B-13
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2012, 10:10 AM »

Ara, i don't really think sound would help you here. The Nexus and Soul have both different sizes and different materials. The Soul will be heard even at 80ft from you in light winds where you will have some more inputs due to the fact you are constantly moving the kite for it to fly. The aerodynamics of the kites differs from tricks, type of winds it is flown and the way it is flown. On my SF Pro 2.3 i can hear flic flacs when i over do it from fade to flare but it is very silent if i am a bit softer.In backspins, my Hypnotist is lazy and silent where as the SF will be more rapid and loud. but they require different inputs and are from different materials too. If you worry about damaging your kite when pulling or initiating a trick, then don't be harsh with it and give more slack to kill speed so your inputs are softer. Some tricks are 'dangerous' from the frame rather than the sail. the lines you tug is attached to the bridles which are attached to the frame itself. Some tricks like the lazy susan tends to put some pressure on the LS and wrongly initiated can result in a hard snap. Same for the flapjack where good timing is better than speed and power to do it.
Take a look a Martin Madsen channel on youtube, some of the tutorials (if not almost) are with only the sound of the kite and some wind.
You may feel sometimes where to tug more, pull stronger and what tricks require these inputs. http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74

But don't forget to have fun rather than worrying about breakage and damages. If you passed the crashing series, then your kites will serve you years of fun Smiley
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madhabitz
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 02:46 AM »

Don't forget DPMama74's tutorials and studies-- a goodly portion of his videos have the sounds you're looking for.

Half Axel/Cascade Studies:
Half Axel/Cascade Studies

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ko
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 03:56 PM »

 Mark Reed gives an example of how a snap stall should sound. This actually helped (the reason i remembered it) Cant remember what Vid though I really like Martin's vids just the wind and kite
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 08:31 AM »

Don't forget DPMama74's tutorials and studies-- a goodly portion of his videos have the sounds you're looking for.

Half Axel/Cascade Studies:
Half Axel/Cascade Studies



+1... as soon as i read your post i thought of DPmama74.
Keep in mind Martin is a cyborg... put on earth to show kiters spot-on robotic inputs with nirvanas.
=)
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 06:54 PM »

THe sound isn't really going to tell you much at all.  The only thing you will be able to get is where in the sequence the input is and you can tell that by watching the kite anyway.  Too many different factors play into the sound.  You have wind, leech line tension, line length, kite build specs, materials, type of frame and a few others.  The difference in frame flexibility can change the sound or even delay it from when the input is made.  Your science is not sound when it comes to kites (pun intended).  2 identical kites can sound quite different too even if flown in the same wind.
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B-13
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 07:17 PM »

THe sound isn't really going to tell you much at all.  The only thing you will be able to get is where in the sequence the input is and you can tell that by watching the kite anyway.  Too many different factors play into the sound.  You have wind, leech line tension, line length, kite build specs, materials, type of frame and a few others.  The difference in frame flexibility can change the sound or even delay it from when the input is made.  Your science is not sound when it comes to kites (pun intended).  2 identical kites can sound quite different too even if flown in the same wind.

CA_Ike, that's what i wrote before. Thanks to give more clarifications on kites specs and different sounds emitted by them within different wind conditions.
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madhabitz
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 10:51 PM »



Keep in mind Martin is a cyborg... put on earth to show kiters spot-on robotic inputs with nirvanas.
=)


too funny!

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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 03:32 PM »

Thanks to all for the comments.

I know sound in this case should not be taken as rocket science.
However, I (think I) do get the feel of what it takes to pull a kite by watching those videos and hearing the actual kite sounds (even if controlled by cyborgs...).
Please consider the fact that, as I said at the beginning, I have nobody around to watch live how s/he flies a kite. So I have to rely on three guys, me, myself and I, to figure out how to do it all and these three blokes know very little about kites. So videos with background music help but once I have started to hear the actual kite sounds I have felt like more connected (or closer) to the images and to my own sensations when flying.

So thanks!

N.
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