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Author Topic: Relixir  (Read 4617 times)
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zippy8
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 05:28 AM »

Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

[citation needed]

Mike.
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John Welden
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 07:44 AM »

I took a shot at a graphic.

Really fast, but you get the idea.

I'm open to ridicule, but not impervious.  Roll Eyes



OH MY GOD HOW DARE YOU! I'm calling the kite police! I bet Mark has already contracted his lawyer.
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boomertype
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 08:26 AM »

I too doubt Mark would care about kites made for personal use.
However if someone started mass producing them offshore in a dark sweatshop and selling them on evilBay as the Plism Erixer, Mark would have heartburn.
There is a huge difference between making a end of life previously produced kite for personal use, and making and selling them for profit.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:38 AM by boomertype » Logged
Tmadz
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 09:35 AM »

Can we give them time to contact mark and see if he's ok with making a relixir for personal use?
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 12:39 PM »

I too doubt Mark would care about kites made for personal use.
However if someone started mass producing them offshore in a dark sweatshop.........

Yeah because that's his job............. Cheesy
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 12:44 PM »

I took a shot at a graphic.

Really fast, but you get the idea.

I'm open to ridicule, but not impervious.  Roll Eyes



Wow, I find it really beautiful.

N.
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In my bag...
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Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
chilese
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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 12:54 PM »

Yeah, I should probably copyright the design.  Huh

Having obtained a few patents in my time and actually completely

written one patent.....

Could one of us IANAL (iamnotalawyer) explain what "CLAIMS" any

recent kitemaker could make about their "unique" kite?

Perhaps the profile.

You could claim copyright on the panel design as art.

Maybe whoever first used a standoff could've gotten a patent.

We basically have a Rogallo wing (patented 1951) in various shapes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing

combined with a dual-line kite (military WW2 IIRC).

Everything else has been minor tweaks borrowed from sailing

technology and material improvements.

I don't like knock-offs of existing designs and steer people away from them.

Even patents run out and are expensive to maintain and fight for legally.

The Revolution patent claims were quite specific and THAT kite is quite different.

I totally respect the Hadzicki family and what they have done. The dual-line

world has evolved into a microscopic difference of parameters, centered around

a 2.2 meter, dual-standoff, straight leading-edge, weighted wing with best materials.

What could a TNT or any recent high-end kite claim as theirs to protect?

Only the panel layout.

And I am not a lawyer.  Smiley
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:12 PM by chilese » Logged

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John Welden
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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 01:19 PM »

John

By the way, sweet photoshop job you did there. Looks pretty damn real.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2012, 01:34 PM »

John

By the way, sweet photoshop job you did there. Looks pretty damn real.

Is that true?  Shocked    Huh
Have I been fooled?   Embarrassed
I support giving this design a life of its own.

I don't know about US legal aspects. Here in Europe the layout could be registered but not patented.
Register is for creativity.
Patent is for inventiveness.
Cheers,

N.

P.S. IANAL...   Wink
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Kantaxel
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« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 03:36 PM »

Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

[citation needed]

Mike.

Okay ....Okay!!  Now I'm excited.........Let's see........hmmh Undecided  I think we can get six pages of this thread if only we bring Citation in on it.........Wasn't he a son of Seattle Slew?  I think that's it...What gives?

 Tongue

Jim
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chilese
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« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 05:54 PM »

Thanks JW.  Smiley

I was going for sort of a circuit board feel and wanted the design

to incorporate the spars as part of the "logo".

Don't know if it would work on a kite or what shapes you would have

to cut to make the shaped sail look like this. Probably wouldn't be

too easy to get that look on a deeply scalloped sail.

Hope you're doing well John.
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zippy8
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« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2012, 10:04 PM »

Yeah, I should probably copyright the design.  Huh
Sure... as a derivative work, properly acknowledging the basis of it.

I am not a lawyer either (but I play one on TV) so rather than clumsily pick through a multinational legal minefield hows about this:- don't just go ahead and straight copy somebody else's work for your own benefit without at the very least asking their permission first on a prima facie basis of "that's only polite". And don't presume to know their view on the matter beforehand.

Quote
Maybe whoever first used a standoff could've gotten a patent.
One French company did try to patent bungee-around-the-wingtip. It took quite a bit of work to stop them. Patents offices let all manner of nonsense slip through.

Quote
I don't like knock-offs of existing designs and steer people away from them.
But you're untroubled by copies of out-of-production designs and that's without extending your "it's all been done before so today's kites are just yesterday's kites" analogy that everything's up for grabs ? What's the cut off ? As soon as it's out of production we should fire up our sewing machines or do you consider a period of mourning required ?

Quote
What could a TNT or any recent high-end kite claim as theirs to protect?
The specifics of that design and the right to make use of it as they see fit.

Bottom line - people will make copies of the Elixir and anything else they want whilst making whatever justifications they need. Or not. Maybe they simply don't care. I'd really like it if kite makers made their old designs public domain (like Elliot have done in the past) but that's for them to decide.

Mike.
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chilese
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« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2012, 11:11 PM »

Mike,

I'm sorry that we don't have a "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon as my design statement

was meant to be amusing. It seems I failed.

I do agree that asking permission before making an Elixir "not for sale" is a reasonable

thing to do.

To me, the cutoff is unclear. Copying a panel layout on any kite seems obviously rip-off

fodder. I do believe that many of the current kites are very close to one another in

size, shape and behavior.

(If I took a Nirvana, moved the standoffs a bit, changed the panel layout,

slightly different bridle, it's not really my design, it's my Nirvana variation).

Certainly, even the much heralded Nirvana has gone through many iterations.

You mentioned, "The specifics of that design and the right to make use of it as they see fit."

Even if somehow those specifics could somehow be claimed as unique, any model upgrade like a 0.5 cm shortening of the upper spreader, would make someone's copy
"legal" under law.

I still maintain that any modern dualie has no feature or set of features which is so different than any other dualie. Panel layout, sure.

Consider the number of kites having the same name, no one seemed to care too much
about the TNT "borrowing" the Trick'n'Track nickname.
Vapor foils are out there right now.
It's hard to get a name that hasn't been used before.
A kite shape? Variations on a theme.

It is possible that the actual sail profile (not outline) may be somehow possible to protect.

Even my favorite flying kite, the Mojo, borrowed its broadseaming from sailing, and other sport kites used the same technique.

Whether the Hadzicki family condones Rev-like copies for personal use or not, they

realize that people are going to copy their breakthrough design. It's been almost

25 years since the Rev shape came out, so even if they could have patented the

basic shape, that would have expired.

The period of mourning should include:

1) The kite is no longer made

2) The kite hasn't been made for years

3) The designer/manufacturer has stated he will never make another one.

4) The "new"/old model being built is not for sale.

If I wanted to make a Rok, who do I ask?
A dualie? The kite maker whose kite "inspired" me.
I'm guessing there are many "inspired" kitemakers who started with someone else's kite and made enough tweaks, (along with a new panel layout) for them to think of themselves as the creator of that model.

Mike, you are one of the few people I like, respect and alway read on this Forum.

Considering some of the people on your facebook referenced page are having words with each other about inspired over copied, it's obvious the coveted pieces of the pie are not well defined.




« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 11:18 PM by chilese » Logged

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mikenchico
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« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2012, 12:49 AM »

Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?

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« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2012, 01:30 AM »


Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really?


A bit like saying "all cars are refinements of Cugnot's steam automobile, so I'm going to copy something General Motors developed"

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Kevin Sanders

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