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Author Topic: P2 Framing  (Read 898 times)
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williamskg6
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« on: June 09, 2012, 09:15 AM »

Ok.  I think I've actually decided to build a P2.  It sounds like it's more appropriate for the Colorado near-prairie winds we get where I live.  I'm wondering what to do about framing.  The 6mm carbon that is specified in the plans is not easily available here and I would like to upgrade to Skyshark P1X or P2X instead. 

Has anyone experimented with building a P2 kite using these tubes?  I was thinking that the LE and lower spreaders could be P2X with a P1X upper spreader.  I suppose that the spine should be P2X in this case as well.  Are there disadvantages to using a straight lower spreader instead of tapered?  Maybe a P2X leading edge/spine, P1X upper spreader, and 5PT Black Diamond lower spreaders?

Does anyone have any advice on making this framing choice?
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madhabitz
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 11:41 AM »

I know little about this stuff, but I do know that Steve does (like an encyclopedia he is) and can get stuff to you really really fast.

Check it out:  http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=17

Don't be put off if you don't see what you want-- give him a call (register/login to see the contact info link at the bottom of the page).
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Krijn
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 11:47 AM »

pierre (one of the p2-designers) has got a P2 with P200 as leading edges

that kite doens't fly as good as the 6mm-leading-edge-version


i'll direct him to this thread

Krijn
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sugarbaker
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 01:58 PM »

I agree that the P2 with the 6mm carbon flies better than my P200 framed one (both have 5pt tapered lower spreaders).  I would definitely not hesitate to order the supplies you need (as opposed to trying to purchase them locally).

P1X and P2X spars are becoming very scarce, as they aren't being made anymore.  As for the spreaders, 5pt is easily obtained from almost any online kite supply... Chico Kites being an excellent resource as mentioned (Steve's storefront).  The advantage of tapered lower spreaders is that the bend more at the leading edges and less at the spine. In truth, I don't know why this is better (although the majority of kites I own utilize a tapered lower spreader... with the exception of the R-Sky toxic I just received that has P300 lower spreaders).

Anyway, order up some .230" light wall carbon for the leading edges. You'll save a bit of money and have a kite that can take a beating in gusty winds.  Best of luck with your build!

Stephen
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tpatter
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 03:39 PM »

Ok, forgive my ignorance.  Can I infer that .230" light wall carbon is the same as 6 mm carbon?
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 04:03 PM »

there are several spars available very close in size to one another (in the realm of pultruded spars)
.230 light wall
.230 heavy wall (I use this for internal ferrules on my small stash of ProSpar brand carbon/fiberglass rods... no longer produced, but great for kite spines). 
and .240 (which works for internal ferrules on the majority of skyshark P series spars).

There was some debated about what to use as a substitute for the P2 plans that call for 6mm Excel Cruise carbon spars (available outside the U.S.A.)
Closest in specs is the .230 light wall carbon. 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 04:05 PM by sugarbaker » Logged
tpatter
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 05:30 PM »

Thanks, Stephen, I appreciate it.

The reason I ask is that I have a Nirvana FX that I fly extremely aggressively usually in high wind.  It's framed in 6 mm and I know that it's a matter of time......

It doesn't sound like I could mix and match .230 with 6 mm, however since the internal diameter will not match up?

Thanks again,
Tom.
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sugarbaker
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 06:01 PM »

it is unlikely that you would be able to mix and match, unless they are using an external ferrule.  You will likely need to replace both leading edges if you break something (unless you can get the exact replacement for the broken piece). 
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williamskg6
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 09:07 PM »

So, it sounds like I'll be using .230 pultruded carbon and 5PT lower spreaders as in the plan.  Is the Avia .2300 carbon considered light wall carbon?

Thanks for all the comments!
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mikenchico
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 09:58 PM »

Avia .2300" is available in both light wall ID=0.1600, OD=0.2300, Wall=0.0350, 17.5 grams. And strong wall ID=0.1440, OD=0.2300, Wall=0.0430, 20.5 grams. I haven't found good info on the Euro spars, to many conflicting measurements, but my best guess on the Excel 6mm is ID=0.1378,  OD=0.2323, Wall=0.0473, 19.0 grams. I'm still not satisfied with those figures though because there is more material in the Excel but the weight is less, could be a lighter epoxy or difference in the amount of carbon fibers though.

Anyway be sure to specify the light wall if that is the one you choose, it is a newer spar and not all retailers may have it in stock.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 09:59 PM by mikenchico » Logged

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williamskg6
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 08:03 PM »

On a related note, what standoff/whisker fittings do people commonly use on 5PT spreaders?  Since the tube changes diameter along its length, how do you know what size to by?  Also, has anyone seen a need for yo-yo stoppers on the P2? 

Thanks!
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Kareloh
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 01:08 AM »

I usually use these APA's in the 6mm size:



They fit nicely on the PT series spars.


I can also confirm that the 6mm pultruded LE's feel better then the upgraded Skyshark version. Also much better in gusty wind. Pierre's P2 STD is actually framed in 5pt ULE and p200 LLE's.

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pierre
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 08:04 AM »




I can also confirm that the 6mm pultruded LE's feel better then the upgraded Skyshark version. Also much better in gusty wind. Pierre's P2 STD is actually framed in 5pt ULE and p200 LLE's.



Let me say this a little different..
Like Karel and Krijn are saying..the P2 with the 6mm LE flies way better than my skyshark version....i totally agree with that.It handles gusty winds way better than mine....mine is a shaking stevens in those winds...not nice...but on the beach...its lovely..!It also has lesss pull with the skyshark frame...
But....the tricking and the way tricks look are much better and easier on the skyshark version...backspins , multilazys and flatspins are much flatter on my version . I think i'm gonna choose the middle way...structil 6mm...i think (hope) that will be the solution...
The UL with skyshark framing is perfect (in my eyes)...did the last changings in Stella and back home i took off 3 grams of weight...now it's good...On 20 m (25 kg) .lines it already flies in the lightest winds with lots , really lots , of drive...at this moment it is better than my standard...this week i will be working on my std. again..
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