GWTW Forum
August 29, 2014, 11:06 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Stuck on stalls  (Read 1837 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« on: June 13, 2012, 05:36 AM »

I'm looking for tips on how to break through the stalls. I've got my turns down and most of my stalls, but I still am stuck on getting side slide to go consistently. The winds here aren't the smoothest and I can't seem to get a day where the winds aren't gusty over 15 mph or too shifty.

I'm flying a Quantum, but it just seems to fly heavy and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want. I don't know if I'm being too strong with it, but the light touch doesn't seem to get any response. I've tried being careful when I adjust my bridle settings, but I can't seem to get it right either and I appear to be running all over the field to no effect.

Sorry guys. I'm just starting to get really frustrated and the more I watch the videos the less it helps. And what sucks is my schedule has seemed to conflict with just about every festival within 300 miles.

Does anyone have tips on self teaching or techniques to progress? Not a lot of dual line fliers near me to go to for help. Sad
Logged
tcope
Trade Count: (+4)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 488


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 05:47 AM »

You were kind of all over the place with that post and did not really go into much detail in each area. You don't mention what the actual issues are. For example... what is going wrong with the slides?

For side slides, start on the _very_ outside of the wind window in a downward flight. Quickly spin the kite pointing upward and give immediate slack. As mentioned above, you don't state what is going wrong with the slides. You may need to walk forward if the kite is starting to fly at some point. If it's gusty, any slack line maneuver is going to be more difficult.

What do you mean by, "...and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want"?
Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
http://www.utahkitefliers.org
fidelio
Trade Count: (+7)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1089


Location: las vegas

« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 06:39 AM »

the success of a sideslide depends greatly on how you move your feet to compensate for the wind, and where the kite is in the wind window.

to keep the kite from rising or falling as you cross the window, on the sides you may need to be walking backwards but as the kite goes though the center of the window you may need to be walking forwards.

it may also be helpful to try a slightly different style of entry where instead of trying to snap stall with a pulling force, alternately you can turn the kite nose up and stop the rotation by letting out the tension on the initiating hand to meet the slack hand. this upsets the kite less and may cure a tendency in the kite to rotate past vertical. it can also help with momentum crossing the window sideways.

on older kites you could tug on the wing falling low and it would 'fly' up, but it seems more modern kites you have to let the high wing drop to meet the lower wing as theyrespond less to the small tug.

all of this of course, is just one persons rambling, but patience, and practice are the biggest key to success of a finesse move like the sideslide.

when you're lucky enough to get a good one, it's quite satisfying, and can rival the coolest tricks out there.

you can do it.

edit: forgot to mention
quick tip: use your wrists and arms to keep the nose pointed up, and your feet to control altitude.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:57 AM by fidelio » Logged

Fdeli
red sweater
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 300

Location: Columbia, MD

« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 06:48 AM »

I'm still working on that sideslide, too. It's pretty tricky figuring out the line tensions and how quickly I have to walk forward, and every day is a little different. I suspect I'm not going fast enough. But I haven't given it enough dedicated practice yet.

Sorry I don't have any helpful advice. Thanks for asking the question, the answers should help others (like me), too.
Logged

My bag:
HQ Breeze, Silver Fox 2.3 Pro UL, Nirvana Std, Prism Quantum
ITW Mesa DC, Premier Popper Line Climber
Rev EXP
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 08:10 AM »

You were kind of all over the place with that post and did not really go into much detail in each area. You don't mention what the actual issues are. For example... what is going wrong with the slides?

For side slides, start on the _very_ outside of the wind window in a downward flight. Quickly spin the kite pointing upward and give immediate slack. As mentioned above, you don't state what is going wrong with the slides. You may need to walk forward if the kite is starting to fly at some point. If it's gusty, any slack line maneuver is going to be more difficult.

What do you mean by, "...and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want"?

You're right. I tend to let it bottle up and then it all bursts out. Let me focus here.

I have several issues and I can't seem to put them together. First is the wind speed. Having a hard time finding a day that isn't gusty, but in that 8-10 mph window to get the kite to slack line. Second, when I get that sweet wind the quantum seems to feel heavy and doesn't want to respond to my inputs. I have tried shorter/longer, faster/slower movements, but I am still saddled with tons of oversteer. Kind of like turning a boat. I can't seem to find the middle ground. That brings me to the bridle adjustments. I didn't play with the bridle setting for the first couple of months. But as my progress was slowing I thought that maybe I should adjust it to the more responsive setting to get quicker response to my inputs. I thought that I was ready for it, plus it's hard to tell when I should go for lighter wind or strong wind settings.

There's a lot of quad line fliers around here, but that isn't gonna help me and I really don't want to go there yet. I was really upset that I missed Grand Haven, but I'm hoping to catch some festivals this summer. Also, I am hesitant to bother the performers to ask questions. Sorry to say, I did meet the Gordon brothers in Milwaukee and was a little starstruck like a 6 year old. I was taking to a club buddy and Zach walks over picks up my buddys Rev and starts doing things that made my jaw drop.

Sorry so whiny, but I don't want to give up on this and I am tired of banging my head against the wall.
Logged
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 08:13 AM »

the success of a sideslide depends greatly on how you move your feet to compensate for the wind, and where the kite is in the wind window.

to keep the kite from rising or falling as you cross the window, on the sides you may need to be walking backwards but as the kite goes though the center of the window you may need to be walking forwards.

it may also be helpful to try a slightly different style of entry where instead of trying to snap stall with a pulling force, alternately you can turn the kite nose up and stop the rotation by letting out the tension on the initiating hand to meet the slack hand. this upsets the kite less and may cure a tendency in the kite to rotate past vertical. it can also help with momentum crossing the window sideways.

on older kites you could tug on the wing falling low and it would 'fly' up, but it seems more modern kites you have to let the high wing drop to meet the lower wing as theyrespond less to the small tug.

all of this of course, is just one persons rambling, but patience, and practice are the biggest key to success of a finesse move like the sideslide.

when you're lucky enough to get a good one, it's quite satisfying, and can rival the coolest tricks out there.

you can do it.

edit: forgot to mention
quick tip: use your wrists and arms to keep the nose pointed up, and your feet to control altitude.

Thanks Fidelio. Good suggestions. I think I need to change how I approach it.

Todd
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 08:15 AM by Tmadz » Logged
red sweater
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 300

Location: Columbia, MD

« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 08:24 AM »

I've never had problems with oversteer on the Quantum. But I've yet to try the radical setting on the bridle, which I assume would increase oversteer. (See "Special Tuning Feature" on page 2 of this (pdf) document.) Do you know which setting you're on?

I assume flying at the lower end of the wind range increases oversteer, as well? I've tended to do most of my Quantum flying at the beach in stronger winds. Because it just won't stay aloft at most inland places for me.
Logged

My bag:
HQ Breeze, Silver Fox 2.3 Pro UL, Nirvana Std, Prism Quantum
ITW Mesa DC, Premier Popper Line Climber
Rev EXP
tcope
Trade Count: (+4)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 488


Location: Salt Lake City, UT

WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 09:25 AM »

You are no being whiny. Those are all legit concerns/questions.

When I started I could nto get my Prism kite to fly. I even returned it for a slightly more expensive Prism kite (Fanatic). I still could not get it to fly. A few weeks later I met up with a local club. Turns out my bridle connections were about 8" too low! The kite would pop up and then jsut fall back down to the ground. If I had not found this out, I don't know if I'd still be flying 13 years later.

I had a hard time seeing what the adjustment type is on the Quantum from he PDF file as it does not provide an over-all view. Over-steer is when the kite turns really quickly with just a little tug. Because it turns so quick and with little hand movement, it also tends to keep turning a little even after straighting out the lines... hence, over-steer. He say that you have a lot of over-steer but also that it turns like a boat (slow). It should be one or the other.

You may want to look around in your area for a place with cleaner wind. Here, one side of town is terrible and the other side is much better. So location can change the way the wind blows.
Logged

Todd Copeland
Member of T.I.S.K.K
Memeber of Utah Kite Fliers
http://www.utahkitefliers.org
tpatter
Trade Count: (+21)
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1961

Location: Seattle, WA

WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2012, 09:34 AM »

Where I live, we usually have very bumpy and inconsistent winds.  I think it is very difficult to do a slide in anything but nice smooth wind.   This is an advanced trick (to be done well) in my book on a modern kite.

I would progress onto other tricks and come back to it.  It requires a finesse and connection with the kite that you can only get with lots of time on the lines (in my opinion).  Also, less wind, the better. 
Logged

6 kite tom
red sweater
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 300

Location: Columbia, MD

« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 10:21 AM »

I had a hard time seeing what the adjustment type is on the Quantum from he PDF file as it does not provide an over-all view.

Maybe I had no trouble because I'm an engineer. Smiley

In the diagram, the inhaul is on the left, outhauls on the right, flying line on the top. The adjustment is just moving the inhaul further up the flying line pigtail, bringing the bridle more to the center.

P.S. "Care and Feeding" section?! Just saw that now. What do you feed kites?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 10:26 AM by red sweater » Logged

My bag:
HQ Breeze, Silver Fox 2.3 Pro UL, Nirvana Std, Prism Quantum
ITW Mesa DC, Premier Popper Line Climber
Rev EXP
adx1592
Trade Count: (+31)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1164

Location: Pinckney, MI/Cincinnati, OH

« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2012, 10:38 AM »

Tmadz,
where in IL are you located? I'm meeting up with another flyer around here sometime, I'll let you know when and where if you're close and interested. I can try to help if I can.

Fidelio hit the nail on the head, for me at least. Mess around with entires, and move so slightly to control altitude and bobbling with your hands and feet. The inputs for these are much smaller than you might think. Keep crankin' away and try not to really over think it.
Logged

-Devin Cobleigh-Morrison
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 10:59 AM »

Over-steer is when the kite turns really quickly with just a little tug. Because it turns so quick and with little hand movement, it also tends to keep turning a little even after straighting out the lines... hence, over-steer. He say that you have a lot of over-steer but also that it turns like a boat (slow). It should be one or the other.

You may want to look around in your area for a place with cleaner wind. Here, one side of town is terrible and the other side is much better. So location can change the way the wind blows.

I am west of Aurora. WIDE open corn/soybean fields. I have a few nice 10+ acre parks surrounded by farms to fly so I can get the smoothest air possible, which isn't saying much.

My oversteer is as you described it. I was focusing on the delayed reaction after the inputs, not the speed. When I go to correct, I start getting the wobbles and the kite'll tip to one side and I have to pull out of the slide before it can really begin. I've tried both long/short and slow/fast movements and can't seem to find the right combo.

When I say it flies heavy, I mean that the response in the 8-10mph winds is sluggish compared to say a higher end kite. I've tried to find the magic wind speed but anything over twelve seems to fill the sail and the pull is too much without running down the field to slack the lines. What I'm looking at is inexperience without benefit of tutoring. I've hit a wall and I think I need to fly with some experienced people.

I'm going to reset the bridle to factory and start over. Thanks for the help. I am determined to get past this.

p.s. I have added a couple of sites to kitemap.org in Sugar Grove and a have a few more good ones to add to give you an idea of where I have to fly.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:05 AM by Tmadz » Logged
Gamelord
Trade Count: (+2)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 592


Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 11:19 AM »

One thing that you will probably want to play with is the bridle setting.  For slides, I find that setting the kite heavy helps.  Move your bridle attachment point towards the "strong wind" setting - yea, even if you are flying in light winds.  This will make it easier to stall the kite and give it less tendency to fly forward.
Logged

lylenc
Trade Count: (+1)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 254

Location: Walla Walla, WA

« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 12:59 PM »

In preparation for the slide, practice holding a stationary stall as long as possible in all areas of the wind window. That will get your control inputs and muscle memory set most of the way for the slide, so you won't have to think about them during the slide.

As mentioned previously, control kite's slide altitude with footwork moving forward to reduce height and backward to increase height for adjustments to gusts and position in the wind window.

Usually holding the leading wing at a constant arm position is easiest for learning, so that wing tip is the pivot point for maintaining wing tips level. (There are times when using the front wing tension or slack is easier, but that is an extra variable you can learn after you have the slide figured out.) Adjust the trailing wing's line tension or slack to move the trailing wing tip up or down for a level wing tip orientation.

I found learning slide control easiest by focusing my attention on and "flying" the trailing wing tip. Others may have better luck focusing on the nose or the entire kite. I look at the entire kite now that I don't have to think about slide inputs.

While learning slide control, in the higher end of the kite's wind range, do slides at the edges of the wind window. In the lower end of the wind range, use the center of the window. Once you get the hang of it, you can use as much of the window you want to work for.
Logged

Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
Tmadz
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 439


Location: Middle of an Illinois cornfield

« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 01:59 PM »

Thanks Guys. Some really good tips. I get the feet to control altitude and I get the flying controlling by trailing edge. I'm going to try these out.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:35 PM by Tmadz » Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!