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Author Topic: Relixir  (Read 4632 times)
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chilese
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« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2012, 02:38 AM »

While I enjoy splitting hairs with many of you.....

The fact remains that time and money someone spent to refine someone else's original work

does not make that refinement theirs.

If I determined a 10" standoff was the best length for a sport kite (just an example people),

that doesn't mean I am entitled to ownership or control of the length of a standoff.

I would have no claim to that. No dual line sport kite has a feature or set of features that could

be viewed as patentable (my test for inventiveness). I'm not saying kitemakers should get patents,

I'm saying they couldn't get patents. There is nothing they have done warranting that distinction.

Of course they want to protect their designs. For the most part, it would be a copyright

(bird shape for example). Artists go into museums and paint copies of the masterpieces for

schoolwork. Are they carted off to prison for forgery? No. Not unless they attempt to sell their

work as the original.

Consider the number of kiters, and kitemakers who use my photographs to promote both

themselves and their products on websites, (facebook, personal, professional). Many have

asked, most have not. It's true that the pictures are not part of my livelihood, not that anyone

has ever offered payment (Mark Reed and a few others have sent kites as thank yous). And

some of those people are on that facebook page Mike referenced.

Rob Vreeland has been published many times in the past without credit or money and left

kite photography altogether. Kiting is a tough area to make a living in.

   Had I the talent to build kites, what would I build? I could make a Rev look-alike and get

no static from Revolution as long as I make it for personal use. And they still make this kite.

That is without asking anyone for permission.

But if I wanted to make a copy of a kite long out of production, with no chance of being made again, for personal use, one time... I am vilified and compared to a common burglar.

Selective judgement. It's the best kind.  Smiley
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:56 AM by chilese » Logged

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Ca Ike
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« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2012, 04:44 AM »

Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?


I'm pretty sure this comment was directed at JOhn but I will say that by now from several threads, my vapor resto project among others, it should be well known that even though I can already make these sails I'm not going to go as far as building a complete kite without at least letting MArk have first say in the matter(and the right to produce it himself if he liked the idea and results).

Now I have talked to prism CS both Brent and Sandy a few times about getting repairs to damaged sails on these older kites. On most of these OOP designs they don't do that (I'm assuming liability issues here due to replacement issues if their repair fails) and it was deemed ok to make templates for the purpose of rebuilding a sail if I wanted to do it myself.  This is how a lot of OOP items get remanufactured , restored and even customized. 

However, I think at this time this project/idea is killed, at least for me. MAybe when I have to make a new sail for my lix I'll resurect it then. SO might as well lock, delete, nuke or otherwise kill the thread too.  Maybe it will spark some talk over at Prism and get some new ideas flowing there, who knows.
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chilese
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« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2012, 08:10 AM »

Mike (either one),

I have gone back and read most of the messages on the referenced kite builder thread.

There are several instances where 1 kite maker accuses another kite maker of stealing

a design. And there are also a few instances where the accuser is then accused by

someone else of "borrowing heavily" on previous work.

That would include Dean Jordan.

Thanks for the link.

Interesting and enlightening read.  Smiley

https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 08:13 AM by chilese » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2012, 02:41 PM »

There are several instances where 1 kite maker accuses another kite maker of stealing a design. And there are also a few instances where the accuser is then accused by someone else of "borrowing heavily" on previous work.
Permit me to reply this one last time and then leave you all to your own decisions.

I've had a bit of a try to track down a quote from Terry Pratchett about writing in the "fantasy" genre but I haven't and eventually gave up. He made the point that within a genre everyone takes from pot of preceding ideas that other have built up beforehand. As you take from them, it's only fair that you add to the pot a little of your own, and so the genre grows not by the work of one but by the hand of many.

Kite design follows the same broad principles - the best kite available today owes something to everything that came before it, in some small way. No one needs to reinvent the overall shape and form as it has been done before. Ideas about the ingredients that go into making a kite came from someone else and have been reshaped by everyone that has used them. Everyone is borrowing. There's not a single aspect of the Elixir that hadn't gone before - (active bridle; ABW - vented wingtips; seen it) but....

....when you come up with a specific recipe from those ingredients - that's yours. If someone then uses that to make their own, that's fair 'cos that's exactly what you did. But what's yours is yours. Some of the kitemakers on that Facebook group do get IN MY OPINION a little precious about just how much they've added to the pot but mostly, they're just trying to defend their work from direct copying.

"Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight. New panel layout, just for variety" isn't your own recipe, it's camouflage. You don't want this kite for its looks, you want it for how it flies, and all that work was done by someone else.

Mike.
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« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2012, 03:37 PM »

Oy. Lots of posts since I last read this thread. Lots of justifyin' going on. My first impulse was to spew. Then I decided I didn't really have much more to say that wasn't already very well said by the Mikes. +1

John W:  Really?

Anthony:  It's said there are only seven original ideas. Amazing how much new stuff there is every year, eh? Here's a fun piece of work by Gordon Taylor: http://www.goodgord.com/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html#!/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html
P.S. I'm still coming to Ripon whether you talk to me or not.

Once more:  Sam's links, posted as an example of how cool it would be to do this same kind of thing with kites:
http://dauntlessarchive.com/?portfolio=knives
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/the_dauntless
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"I haven't failed. I've just found ten-thousand ways that won't work."   -Thomas Edison
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« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2012, 03:47 PM »


John W:  Really?

Really - what? Shocked  I'd imagine that John W. knows Mark as well as anyone on this forum.  Same town, been in the shop at least once Wink.  I'd guess that John has a fair idea about it. 

Making one for personal use is a big difference than making them to be mass produced, or even making them on a one by one basis to sell. Huh
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« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2012, 04:10 PM »

Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?


I find if funny that this comes from a guy who won't even acknowledge the fact that his airform wasn't solely designed by him alone but that another thread entirely.  THats one thing I have always respected Mark for is giving credit to his team be it scobie, Tom or others that helped refine the design or his sailmaker friend that gave him the start in mass factory production.
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« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2012, 04:34 PM »


"Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight. New panel layout, just for variety" isn't your own recipe, it's camouflage. You don't want this kite for its looks, you want it for how it flies, and all that work was done by someone else.

I fail to see what's wrong with that, given:

a) (IA still NAL) Frame geometry, bridle dimensions, etc. are all utilitarian sorts of things, which isn't really what copyright law was designed to protect, so "how it flies" is not protectable IP, unless it's sufficiently innovative that you have taken out a patent.

b) You're not taking money away from that someone else, or (speculating here...) even diverting funds that would otherwise have gone to them, or even profiting yourself.

I'm mystified. I would not want to cause a kite designer any harm, but I have not seen anyone say how that would happen. Saying "don't do it because it's bad" doesn't add information to the discussion.

Also - going way out on a limb (or digging a hole deeper?) here, just for consideration... If you're doing some project like this, and you feel certain that you're not violating any legal or ethical boundary, what good comes of asking permission? You've put the kitemaker in a position of having to say yes, say no, or ignore you. Saying "yes" sets a precedent which they might not be too keen on doing, even if this particular project is OK with them, and the other two responses aren't very good from a public relations point of view. Seems like you've handed them a no-win situation. So perhaps it's more polite to just do it, and then after the fact be generous about attribution to the original where it's due.
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« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15 PM »

[Terry Pratchett ...] made the point that within a genre everyone takes from pot of preceding ideas that other have built up beforehand. As you take from them, it's only fair that you add to the pot a little of your own, and so the genre grows not by the work of one but by the hand of many.
Makes perfect sense from the perspective of an author writing and publishing a book, but what if you just wanted to scribble some things in your diary? Let's say I was amused by the idea of making a version of "Jabberwocky" with a few of its nonsense words replaced by my own.  Its copyright has long expired so there is no legal reason not to do this. Ethically speaking, I have no intent to publish or distribute it beyond maybe subjecting a few unfortunate dinner guests to an occasional recital, and within that context it will be clear (or made clear) that I didn't write the whole poem. Should I restrain myself for fear of offending the estate of Lewis Carroll?

How is this different from making your own version of an OOP kite that you only intend to fly yourself, and which you would describe to any interested passers-by as a derivative of the mighty Prism Elixir, which is not made any more, but Prism does still make some fine and inexpensive kites, which can be purchased yada yada yada...
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« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2012, 05:33 PM »

There are tons of open source plans out there. If you don't have the wherewithal to design your own, use one or more of the available plans. FWIW, Incorporating a design element into your design is not the same as copying a design.

Denny
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« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2012, 09:05 PM »

"Round and round we go in the circle game"   Shocked

If you build it, John, they will come around. Lips sealed
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« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2012, 08:23 AM »

My guess is Mark would be more annoyed having to respond to an email from someone asking if they can make their own Elixir.  Of course they can! Go for it, who cares!

On the list of things that matter in the universe, some dude making his own Elixir is near last in importantence. That's assuming he copies the sail graphics.  If he doesn't, the importance level drops to somewhere around if I like popcorn or not.

John, I've been okay.  I'm finishing up my miniature kite project and I'll post pictures soon. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. 

I hope you and your family are doing well.  You might want to get your finances in order for when Mark sues you over this Elixir deal.  You know how ruthless he is.
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« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2012, 04:41 PM »

 Grin
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« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2012, 02:52 AM »

Wow!! 5 pages and still no report Cheesy.  I was thinking this would be like one of those old days thread where you buy the kite, mod it, and just tell how thing works...yada yada yada Cheesy...you know...yada yada... ::)hmmmm P100 for LE would do nice...
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2012, 07:56 PM »

So, I have a buddy who is an intellectual property lawyer and I asked him his opinion on all this.

The short answer: don't use the name "Relixir".  Otherwise you're probably safe to use the copied Elixir plan and evolve it as long as you do not put the exact Elixir plan up on the net.  The evolved version is almost certainly legal, as it is just another expression of the basic design of a stunt kite.

The tricky part is that copyright has nothing to do with this.  The basic idea of a stunt kite cannot be copyrighted and there are only so many ways that someone can "express" the kite through details.  Everyone is in fact taking the basic idea that has been refined, refining it further (another "expression") and selling it.  There are finite ways that the kite form can be expressed.  What could be an issue is the name.  Elixir could be a trademark, and even reusing the name with an R on the front of it could be trademark violation.  The styling pattern (panel layout, holes in the wingtips, etc.) could be trademarked too.

So, this is a trademark problem, not a copyright problem.  Sounds like it's probably safe to proceed with the project, but not with that name and definitely evolve the plan slightly and it's probably OK.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.  If you follow this post and it turns out I communicated what my lawyer friend said incorrectly, I won't be held liable.  I do, however, trust my friend's opinion though - intellectual property law (patents, copyright, trademarks) is ALL he does.  That doesn't mean that the original designer won't try making requests to take down derivative works, but they wouldn't have a lot of legal power - they'd just be hoping you aren't a lawyer and will do what they ask.
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