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Author Topic: Help on Choice of UL  (Read 2195 times)
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Ken Bour
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« on: June 20, 2012, 07:49 PM »

I recognize that this is an all too common question in the Forum, but I am in a crosswind Roll Eyes and, as contestants do on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," I would like to call a "friend." Embarrassed

For starters, I am an old beginner who bought and still owns a mid-1980's Skynasaur Trooper (nylon sail; .22" pultruded carbon frame) recently repaired and now back in the air courtesy of Steve @ GWTW Kites. As I learned from the experts here, that kite was/is the lesser sibling of the Skynasaur Tracer. Unfortunately, that kite won't fly - at least by me - unless the winds are at least a steady 6-8 MPH.

Thanks to recommendations from this Forum, I have already ordered a new custom SkyBurner WidowMaker (STD), which is currently in production. The WM is rated for 3-20 MPH winds, but more realistically, 5+ in my hands. The WM will be my "go to" kite when the winds are suitable. To accommodate the near zero wind conditions inland (too frequent) and acknowledging my beginner skills, I am not ready for a "tricky" SUL; it would only spend more time in the repair shop than in flight. As a result, I have pretty much decided to add a SkyBurner ProDancer SUL (5 oz.) to my newbie bag and I intend to place that order in the next day or so. The PD SUL should be good from 0-5 MPH comfortably and SAFELY.

While there doesn't appear to be much of a wind gap in the above ensemble, it seems as though I should consider adding a UL to the mix, which leads me to the following two kites:

1) Talon UL (8.5 oz.) 87" Wingspan
2) Ocius UL (6.9 oz.) 84" Wingspan

I have read darn near every GWTW Forum post about these two kites (and their worthy competitors) dating back to 2009. Yes, I have been busy, but isn't that the FUN of new hobbies? Tongue The Talon UL has a LOT of fans and, while the Ocius UL is a newer kid to the block, the videos of Devin showing off that kite's capabilities are stunning to say the least. I know that there are a lot of Benson adherents as well as several others and, while I am not closed to alternatives, I have narrowed down the candidates to make things simpler.

I am actively soliciting opinions from anyone and everyone who is willing to provide them. If you have experiences and recommendations (including neither, both, or something else), I would appreciate your sharing them with me. Decision is imminent. I just learned, tonight, that Kent @ AWoC happens to have a Talon UL in stock in a color I like. Still, if the Ocius UL is the better long-term choice, I am prepared to order and wait...Cry

Thanks, Ken
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Kites: SkyBurner WidowMaker-STD, SkyBurner ProDancer-SUL, Skynasaur Trooper
madhabitz
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 07:57 PM »

You've ordered the WidowMaker..... maybe it would be a good thing to stick with that (the UL version). When the wind changes, you won't have to spend time adjusting to a completely different kite. Just pick up the other lines and go.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 08:13 PM by madhabitz » Logged

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chilese
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 08:02 PM »

Both are excellent kites.

Of the 2, I would opt for the larger and prettier Talon UL.

Just my opinion.

Neither of the 2 kites is an SUL, so your ProDancer SUL will certainly

be welcome when the wind sucks instead of blows.
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John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
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Ken Bour
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 08:14 PM »

You've ordered the WidowMaker..... maybe it would be a good thing to stick with that (the UL version). When the wind changes, you won't have to spend time adjusting to a completely different kite. Just pick up the other lines and go.
Thanks Madhabitz. I have considered the WM-UL and you make a great point about flying consistency. I just thought that, since I am still learning, it might be nice to have some variety in the bag (and designs).

Ken
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 08:18 PM by Ken Bour » Logged

Kites: SkyBurner WidowMaker-STD, SkyBurner ProDancer-SUL, Skynasaur Trooper
mikenchico
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 09:29 PM »

Can't give you much help on your choice, I have very limited time on both of those kites. Just wondering if you were aware that you might be able to watch your Talon being made if you wanted order a custom and wait rather then picking up a stock color. Of course you have to stay up all night to view the live feed. There are some recorded samples below the live feed if you want to see some action on your time.

http://www.justin.tv/jest_of_eve

(sorry can't stop the forum from trying to embed the video or clear that error, just click the link under the vid window)

or you could watch Jon build up an Ocius SUL coutesy of Vertigo here

Ocius SUL (pt.#1).wmv


Ocius SUL pt #2


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fidelio
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 10:57 PM »

the talon ul flies sufficiently different to the wm, wm ul, and ocius ul that it would be a nice change of pace, so to speak, from the others. it's a real joy to fly, and the most frequent out of my bag.

the talon ul is an extraordinary kite. it's a 3-6mph kite though, not a 0-3, so keep that in mind.

edit: the wm ul and ocius ul fly in a little lighter wind, but trade a slight bit of trickiness for the privilege.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:01 PM by fidelio » Logged

Fdeli
Adamld13
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 11:15 PM »

+1 Talon UL Wink
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:17 PM by Adamld13 » Logged

madhabitz
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 11:15 PM »


Thanks Madhabitz. I have considered the WM-UL and you make a great point about flying consistency. I just thought that, since I am still learning, it might be nice to have some variety in the bag (and designs).

Variety is fun
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"I haven't failed. I've just found ten-thousand ways that won't work."   -Thomas Edison
vertigo2u
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 08:19 AM »

Since I own everything you are talking about let me give some novice advise...

You did outstanding in ordering a Widow Maker Std.  Important kite to have in A-bag.  I have two I also have two Widow Maker Ul's. I like color as I have said.  Everyone is Right stick with Widow Maker Ul.  All you do is change kites when the wind changes. 

My progression on wind goes as follows.  Widow Maker Std.  5-10mph.  After 11-12mph..I am done. #125 100',  Widow Maker Ul 3-5/6 mph #100/100'.  When the wind dies I fly the Ocius sul Mike provided video  Kiss .  I fly it from 1 mph-3/4 mph.  #50/75' .

If that dies out I fly my INAK on #50/75-100'.  This when there is NO  and I mean No wind.  I love these moments at the beach when the air is gone. ( once in a while)  Cheesy

I sold my Ocius std. and Ocius Ul.  They are great kites.  Smaller than a Widow Maker but handles nicely. The smaller helped me muscle the kite more.  Got a Big Rush from that since I could not even do an axel at the time.  I started spending more time with my WM and things were coming together better. 

My advise is forget the Ocius std and Ul.  Stay Widow Maker and forget the Pro Dancer.  Order the Ocius SUL.  I have a Pro Dancer I really love the kite.  Solid redish color and floats like a queen doing slides.  She will trick but your inputs are totally different from WM.  You have to take time with her when setting up for  axel or 540 .  She will gone on her back but PAW's is the only person on earth that could anything with her after that.

She was designed before the Ocius Sul and zero carbon rods.  You can fly her in 1 mph wind and she is good for 360's short lines.  Devin can fly the heck out of her also.

So assuming you are not PAWS or Devin in disguise.  You will enjoy the Ocius Sul on light wind.

The inputs are similar to the WM.  When I change to shorter lines it takes a minute to adjust then I am off.

I was able to do 8/9 multi-lazy Susan's with my newer blue/gray/black Ocius SUL.  I have two of them. The Red and Black and blue version.

WHY... I like color change. 

I have never flown the many kites mentioned from Premier or Prisum,Talons, etc.  I've flown a Benson,Black Pearl...  But had no idea what I was doing at the time.

These kites work for me.  I am older flyer and I need kite help.  They forgive and follow through with what I try to do. 

Hobbies and Priorities are the never the same.  Hobbies sometimes rule.   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

If a gy is into photography he spends money. Old cars spends money,NASCAR spends money,fishing Spends Big money sometimes,....

Spend the money on what makes you happy.  Forget the cost.  I didn't walk into Kites and Fun Things and order everything in one day...  set a goal and work towards it.

Now "ROOKIE" did go into Kites and Fun Things and Order everything.  I mean everything....  btw our new Bonito's are in.  Soon gonna see Six Bonito's flying...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:22 AM by vertigo2u » Logged

Kite Bag:  Solus ul, Solus std, Pro Dancer SUL, Widow Maker,Widow Maker UL, Ocius SUL, Vision,Vison 5 stack
Baby "Zoomer". Symphony 1.8 para foil...
Wayner
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 10:30 AM »


For starters, I am an old beginner who bought and still owns a mid-1980's Skynasaur Trooper

Me too. Flying old school for 20 years, trick flying for one year.



I have pretty much decided to add a SkyBurner ProDancer SUL (5 oz.) to my newbie bag and I intend to place that order in the next day or so. The PD SUL should be good from 0-5 MPH comfortably and SAFELY.


The ProDancer SUL will get you flying in low wind days ad develop your low wind skills.  Smiley
It is not a trick kite, but that is a good thing.
As an old school flyer, I has strugled to learn flying in low winds. Owning 4 SULs, and trying others I can say low/no wind flying is difficult and requires time to develop the needed skills. For me using new school trick kite only adds to the frustration as they stall much easier than the ProDancer will.


While there doesn't appear to be much of a wind gap in the above ensemble, it seems as though I should consider adding a UL to the mix, which leads me to the following two kites:

1) Talon UL (8.5 oz.) 87" Wingspan
2) Ocius UL (6.9 oz.) 84" Wingspan


Adding an UL will be a good addition to your bag. UL work in lower wind and at slower speeds than STD. Some tricks are easier to learn in lighter winds.

What do you want to add to your kite bag?
If you want similarity. The WM UL is the choice (I have both  Cool) Its easy to switch between based on the wind, which is common in my location.

If you want variety then, both the Talon and Ocius are great trick kites. Do you want a Porsche or a Ferrari?  Grin  ( I have been lusting after a talon for a while  Wink)


The Talon UL has a LOT of fans and, while the Ocius UL is a newer kid to the block, the videos of Devin showing off that kite's capabilities are stunning to say the least.

Now the bad news. No kite does tricks on its own, your need to develop the skills (its been a slow process for me  Embarrassed ). So when you get your kites get out there and practice.  Grin

P.S. I fly all my ULs on 50# line, this can be a big diference at the lower end of the wind range.  So don't be cheap here.  Cheesy

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boomertype
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 10:40 AM »

Mojo UL, grab one the next time it shows up!
But in the mean time buy one of each! Wink
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Wayner
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 11:01 AM »

Mojo UL, grab one the next time it shows up!

Maybe the best flying kite of all time.  Grin

Not sure who would give one up.  Huh

After flying Chilese's kite once. I was 1st in line when Ken McNeill open up a limited furn of 20.  Cool
 
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Gamelord
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 12:00 PM »

I would agree with most that has been said.

There is a big difference between the tricking speeds of the Talon's and the Widow Makers.  Not so much between the Talon and the Ocius though.  Those two are much more similar in the speeds and inputs of the tricks.

Build quality....  Both the Talon and the Ocius are built incredibly well, some of the best workmanship in the industry.

It will be a bit of a change up going from the Widow Maker to the Talon/Ocius, each like different types of inputs.  The Talon/Ocius likes a much quicker and more demanding input and flying style where the Widow Makers are a bit more flowing and smoother.  The WM's are also a tad bit more forgiving if you screw up an input.

I do love the panel layout on the Talons and the Vented Talon is one of the best looking kites (IMO).

If you are looking for variety of styles and looks, the Talon takes my vote.  For consistency, the WM UL would be perfect.

The Talon and the Ocius are pretty close in comparison (IMO).  If I was to pick between the two I would probably lean towards the Talon - reason?  Main one is the looks, the Talon is plain sexy!  I wouldn't be upset with either one.
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thief
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 12:09 PM »

personally I would go for the old skool SUL....SUL flying is a soul searching wind searching time for me....not trying to do any tricks - except maybe a super slow axel...i prefer a big kite with light sticks and sail....not caring for any sort of tricks that the standard/higher wind versions of the same kite can do....

I put a nod in for the ProDancer....
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Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Ken Bour
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 12:42 PM »

I want to thank everyone for sharing their time, expertise, advice, and recommendations. I read each one several times and I also appreciate those of you who reached out to me with PMs.

I now have a few realizations and decisions:

  • I ordered a PD-SUL (RED) today from SkyBurner. As a beginner, I am perfectly willing and eager to learn basic precision flying and, in super-light winds, it seems that the PD practically ideal for someone of my skill level. [To Verigo2U, who recommended the Ocius SUL ("forget the Pro Dancer"), I want to give you a special shout out because your own cool videos flying the PD-SUL convinced me that I should stay with my original plan! Wink]
  • I just learned that, today, my custom WM-STD is being assembled, so I should have it pretty soon. I'll concentrate on learning "tricks" with that kite when the winds are suitable and my experience/confidence build up.
  • I am going to defer buying a 3rd kite for the present and will concentrate on working with the WM and PD. If my skills with the WM improve and I feel that I need the ability to "trick" in light winds, then I can add the UL (probably another WM; the consistency argument has been persuasive).
 
This thread has been hugely instructive and, though my original course has been redirected, a better outcome has materialized from the discussion! I thank all of you for helping with the decision process.

Great Forum!

Ken
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Kites: SkyBurner WidowMaker-STD, SkyBurner ProDancer-SUL, Skynasaur Trooper
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