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Author Topic: Kite Trick Tablature  (Read 1732 times)
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tpatter
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« on: July 19, 2012, 01:35 PM »

Folks,

Ken suggested starting a thread on kite tablature - see below.  I think its a neat idea.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I see, it's a double-stroke roll (R R L L) preceded by a pop to get the kite rotating?

I am intrigued by the possibility of developing something similar to what guitarists call a tablature. It could have a couple of lines, one for Right and one for Left plus, maybe, a kite orientation (O). Using some conventions for <push>, <tug>, <pop>, <pull>, <snap>, <stall>, (others?), it might be possible to codify the movements crisply for every trick in the book - even simultaneous hand movements. Thinking about the above Cascade example and using the terminology already provided (not that I'm advocating it), here's what I am envisioning as a thought-provoker:

Trick: Cascade (Cd)
O: Fly L > R
R: |-----|--P--T--|--------|--P--T--|--------|--P--|
L: |--T--|--------|--P--T--|--------|--P--T--|-----|

Legend:
P = pull
T = tug or pop (equivalent?)

I grant that lotsa work would be needed to flesh out the "standard" movements (pop vs. tug vs. pull) and also whether there should be modifiers (similar to accents in music) like "gentle push," "sharp tug," and the like. Perhaps other directions need to be incorporated such as what key/time signatures do in music. Still, it seems theoretically achievable and, if it could be done, imaging having plastic-coated index cards with each trick, which could be organized into a deck. The cards could be shuffled to produce routines or patterns ... oh, the possibilities!

If this idea has merit, I would be happy to start another thread and we can explore it. If it's already been done (probably), maybe someone can provide a link. I'm prepared that someone will claim it is impossible (due to varying wind conditions, kite designs, etc.), but aren't guitars (acoustic, electric) and guitarists (long- vs. short-fingered) also different from each other in substantive ways -- yet they manage to produce music from a common tablature?

Have at it ladies and gents...

Ken
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tpatter
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 01:40 PM »

I liked what Ken did, but thought a different orientation - which is different that standard tablature, but I think is neater given we only have 2 inputs essentially.

I liked the idea of +/- for strong versus light input and also a notes section.


Symbols
---------------
P - pop
L - lift
S - slack
-/+ means light or heavy


Cascade (assume flying left to right):


Left    Right    Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S-       P       light setup for the start of trick (to just slightly bring the lower wing forward)
P       S-       half-axel like input

      L       once the kite is nose away, lift the wing up
      P       once the wing is up, pop it back down
      
L             when nose away, bring wing up
P             when wing up, pop it back down

      L       when nose away, bring wing up
      P       when wing up, pop it back down

...    ...    ...
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 01:48 PM »

I like!
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tpatter
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 02:32 PM »

Slow day at work, here's another one.


Symbols
---------------
P - pop
L - lift
S - slack
F - take up all tension and fly away
-/+ means light or heavy



Multi Lazy Susan:

Left           Right            Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F       F       Start by flying upward (in low to regular winds - this will be difficult to learn in high winds)
P+       P+       initial pop to turtle the kite (both hands at the same time)
S+       S+       kite is in the turtle (immediate slack after the pops)
P       S       initiate rotation once the kite is deep in the turtle
S-       S       give the kite enough line to fully rotate
P       S       pop the line again when the kite is about to finish a full rotation
...    ...                    keep popping - drop the right line if you like!  Smiley
F       F       Fly off once the last desired rotation has completed by pulling on both lines.

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Tmadz
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 08:04 PM »

Slow day at work, here's another one.


Multi Lazy Susan:

Left           Right            Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F       F       Start by flying upward (in low to regular winds - this will be difficult to learn in high winds)
P+       P+       initial pop to turtle the kite (both hands at the same time)
S+       S+       kite is in the turtle (immediate slack after the pops)
P       S       initiate rotation once the kite is deep in the turtle
S-       S       give the kite enough line to fully rotate
P       S       pop the line again when the kite is about to finish a full rotation
...    ...                    keep popping - drop the right line if you like!  Smiley
F       F       Fly off once the last desired rotation has completed by pulling on both lines.

I'm confused by your definition of pop then. I'm looking at youtr move to turtle. When you say pop, you are talking about throwing your arms forward? How would you pop light versus strong? When you say pop I'm thinking sudden force, not sudden lack of force. That would be strong slack or lots of slack?
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zippy8
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 08:51 PM »

I've had a feeling of déjà vu before.

Back in the halcyon days of trick kiting this sort of thing was energetically pursued. I'm sure someone with an investigative spirit could scout it out from the rec.kites archive. As I recall I tried to relate it to the sort of "hold" nomenclature that was introduced in The Yonomicon. Others took a grid/matrix approach to kite orientation. It seemed like a thoroughly good idea. It didn't really pan out. Perhaps fresh eyes and new perspectives can offer something new.

What certainly did emerge was that the absolute best that seemed achievable was a gross generalisation, rather than a recipebook.

Mike.
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JimB
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 09:14 PM »

 I always thought that's what Crap ASCII Art™ was for?

Only half kidding: if that. Wink
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red sweater
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 04:39 AM »

I'm confused by your definition of pop then. I'm looking at your move to turtle. When you say pop, you are talking about throwing your arms forward? How would you pop light versus strong? When you say pop I'm thinking sudden force, not sudden lack of force. That would be strong slack or lots of slack?

No. A pop is a quick tension, just as you say. Yes, it's the slack that follows that step that sends the kite into the turtle. So, maybe the notes weren't exact for those two lines.
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Tmadz
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 04:44 AM »

I'm confused by your definition of pop then. I'm looking at your move to turtle. When you say pop, you are talking about throwing your arms forward? How would you pop light versus strong? When you say pop I'm thinking sudden force, not sudden lack of force. That would be strong slack or lots of slack?

No. A pop is a quick tension, just as you say. Yes, it's the slack that follows that step that sends the kite into the turtle. So, maybe the notes weren't exact for those two lines.

OK. I'm new so there's a good chance my ignorance is showing because I never thought of popping into a turtle. I always step and throw forward to slack lines and have it fall back.
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justinpwheeler
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2012, 05:41 AM »

At least for me, popping both lines followed by slack ensures a better turtle.  Just throwing my arms forward would require lots more forward steps and a larger arm sweep.  This way the kite, being stalled, just falls into a good turtle and is ready to spin.  That's been my thought process at least. 
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Tmadz
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2012, 06:37 AM »

At least for me, popping both lines followed by slack ensures a better turtle.  Just throwing my arms forward would require lots more forward steps and a larger arm sweep.  This way the kite, being stalled, just falls into a good turtle and is ready to spin.  That's been my thought process at least. 

Got it. I'll try that.
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 09:11 AM »

To me tpats method makes sense..
It's a somewhat graphic representation and a time line of the inputs.

Pull could = PL
Push could = PH
Pop could = PO
Slack = S
Hard Pull = PL+
Fly Away probably does not need to be represented as most tricks can be repeated.

For a rookie I am not sure how one would go about lifting a wing.
The other thing that tpats way allows is to show timing. Ie pop with slack just a hair after or at the same time can be represented.

Tpat;
Show a snap lazy graphically.

FYI to all:
This is a GREAT idea!

Kirb
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tpatter
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 09:34 AM »

I would describe a lift as a small pull where you then keep the lines in touch with the kite, but not fully tensioned.

So, for a flick flack, for example, you stop the kite in the pancake and then give it a gentle lift back to the fade.   You can't  have much slack or you will not be able to catch the kite in the fade. 

Same for the cascade when lifting the wing.  It's a small input and you are going to pop that same wing in a fraction of a second, so you have no time to fully slack and tension the line, so you give it only enough for the wing to come up - to me that feels like a lift, but technically is really just a flick with little slack. 

The timing and force used when tricking would be very hard to show in this format, but I think the basic inputs would help someone get some initial rough results.  I mean, you can work a lifetime smoothing out your timing and input strength.  Smiley


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tpatter
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 09:46 AM »

Ie pop with slack just a hair after or at the same time

When you pop one wing, the other is almost always slacked to some degree.  If not, then the kite will not rotate, turn, etc.   The only exception I can even think of offhand is yoyo like moves when you are flipping the kite around itself. 

Watch a comete in slo-mo.  Only one wing is popped at a time - the other is slacked even though you may be hitting the kite every quarter of a second.   Smiley

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 09:56 AM »

Good idea  Smiley
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