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Author Topic: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite  (Read 14813 times)
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rncembal
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« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2012, 02:44 PM »

However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

You are stating that as a US based company I am slapping faces. You have no idea how many factories are producing kites and for who. (neither do I , well I know a bunch and who they make some stuff for but there are plenty more) That the Chinese system does not protect intellectual property is no in dispute. That every Chinese factory is run by crooks  I take issue with that. I think it's near impossible to not be Amish and live devoid of Chinese products. Also I'd like it if people would differentiate between counterfeit and knockoff. If you are firmly against any knockoffs you just can buy kites anymore if you look through any kite companies line you will find products inspired by other products
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Tmadz
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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2012, 03:13 PM »

True, but I didn't state that EVERY Chinese company were crooks, but a huge (majority?) number of counterfeits come from their factories. Same as I don't believe every US company are straight shooters. Chinas market and labor advantage were too huge to not deal with and  now those tables are slowly starting to turn, but US companies weight the risks and benefits of dealing with them. What I'm focusing on specifically is the limited kite market. We have a choice to choose licensed authorized kite products, and a lot of us know who those kites come from so that makes it a lot more personal when that money is being taken from those designers and producers.

No hard feelings to anyone else's opinion, but I have made my choice and I only encourage those to do the same.
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madhabitz
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2012, 04:09 PM »


Are you sure you don't mean trademark? I didn't find anything when trying a quick copyright search (though officially that doesn't mean anything), but a few minutes with TESS yielded this:


A trademark is going to have more to do with a company's branding. For instance, a logo can be trademarked. Here's a good page to read about it with great examples:
http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html
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coop
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2012, 04:27 PM »


Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! Smiley
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.
I just want to point out that Rob might know what he is talking about....he has been working for kite manufacturers for a few years now (over 20 yet Rob?) and he is the COO of New Tech and has to deal with their own factory (I think the New Tech factory is not one of those  in Weifang - a place not a person - but not 100% certain).

How did Gomberg "win" his battle?   In the situation that Boomertype mentions he sued a former customer of his who had purchased a number of kites direct from China, and in the settlement Gomberg was awarded the chinese kites.   That is not a battle with Weifang manufacturers though, that was an US issue.

Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2012, 04:29 PM »

Quote from: Ca_Ike
However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

You are stating that as a US based company I am slapping faces.


You and Gomberg too, I guess.
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madhabitz
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2012, 04:34 PM »


Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?

Dude..... how about finding out the whole story before you go off on him? The time, effort, and money it takes to right a wrong like this is more than most people/companies can afford to lose, so you don't see much of it happening. As a result, the unscrupulous get away with murder and have been for a long long time. The fact that David stood up for what was right should be applauded, not slammed.
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coop
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2012, 04:40 PM »

Easy there trigger. I wasnt slamming him. I was going off what someone else typed.

The conterfeit industry is a HUGE problem that I am VERY familiar with. Its odd for big companies to win these kinds of lawsuits so for a small company to go after an end user(if that's the case) and win is quite unheard of unless Rolex was going after them.
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2012, 04:44 PM »

Easy there trigger. I wasnt slamming him. I was going off what someone else typed.

"Trigger," lol.... better than some things I've been called. Thanks for the clarification. You have my apologies.

Nancy
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coop
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« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2012, 05:09 PM »

No worries. And no apology needed. Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2012, 05:25 PM »

tnx
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« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2012, 06:22 PM »


Are you sure you don't mean trademark? I didn't find anything when trying a quick copyright search (though officially that doesn't mean anything), but a few minutes with TESS yielded this:


A trademark is going to have more to do with a company's branding. For instance, a logo can be trademarked. Here's a good page to read about it with great examples:
http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html


I know. But it's arguable that a non-rev kite in the "two triangle" shape is "confusingly similar" to the trademarked shape that is strongly identified with their brand. For example, if I made a kite in the shape of the Nike "swoosh", I would likely be infringing on their trademark (since I'm guessing their logo trademark registration includes international class 28 - toys and sporting goods - which is what my kite would fall under).

The "two triangle shape" case is not so clear to me, because trademarks have similar "utilitarian" exclusions as copyrights. For example, here's a case where a trademarked shape was used as the basis of an infringement claim against someone else selling a competing product with the same shape. Interestingly, as a result of the suit, the plaintiff's trademark ended up being invalidated for "utilitarian" reasons:

http://www.startupnation.com/Can-I-get-a-trademark-on-the-shape-of-my-product/topic/

But again, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know anything. Just engaging in the dubious practice of public speculation (although I have registered a trademark, produced copyrighted works, and been through the patent-filing process).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 06:50 PM by sluggo » Logged
thief
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« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 06:30 PM »


Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! Smiley
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.
I just want to point out that Rob might know what he is talking about....he has been working for kite manufacturers for a few years now (over 20 yet Rob?) and he is the COO of New Tech and has to deal with their own factory (I think the New Tech factory is not one of those  in Weifang - a place not a person - but not 100% certain).

How did Gomberg "win" his battle?   In the situation that Boomertype mentions he sued a former customer of his who had purchased a number of kites direct from China, and in the settlement Gomberg was awarded the chinese kites.   That is not a battle with Weifang manufacturers though, that was an US issue.

Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?

Umm...there is a lot more to this story........a lot more....I am sure that using your googlefu you could find it.......
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 07:44 PM »


This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 08:13 PM »

Weifang is to kites what Silicon Valley is to computers. It's a city known for kites, not some guy or a specific business.
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rncembal
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« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2012, 08:00 AM »

You and Gomberg too, I guess.

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(fixing your tags Rob rob)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:21 AM by thief » Logged

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