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Author Topic: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite  (Read 13633 times)
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rncembal
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« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2012, 08:03 AM »




This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.
I don't see any invoices from Mr Tan's factories what do you know that I don't

(fixed your damn tags again Rob rob)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:23 AM by thief » Logged

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coop
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« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2012, 08:19 AM »

So I have been trying to research the Gomberg case and it appears it never went to trial. Heres a quote from user jburka from the rev forum:

"I feel it's important to have a little clarification on that one...

First, a disclaimer: David is a friend of mine and I've traveled with him a fair amount. I'm also a customer of Gomberg Kite Productions International and have sent way too much money to New Zealand via Neotsu, OR.


The situation with Chinese manufacturers is such that it would be largely impossible to go after the factories. What David did was to sue an American kiteflier who had imported 5 maxi and over-large octopus kites. His lawyer was kiter and intellectual property lawyer Carl Crowell (many of you have probably seen Carl's Crossdeck cellular kites at festivals).

Obviously there is risk in, as one kiter put it, "suing one of your best customers." But David felt that he had to do so in order to protect the value of the Peter Lynn kites for which he is the American reseller. In addition, he was suing a single person over about $25,000 worth of kites, as opposed to a $300 piece. And finally, my understanding is that the defendant was aware that he was buying knock-offs, but felt that the price was "too good to pass up."

The suit never made it to trial, as David and the defendant reached a settlement, the details of which are private. "


So he settled out of court. Actual details are far and few, I would be curious what the settlement was, as he apparently did sue his customer. And again, this did nothing to solve the problem. The US laws are odd in that its not illegal to own counterfeits or buy them, only to sell them(in fact only France and Italy have laws against buying). So in reality the customer that was sued didnt break the law. If it was so easy to sue purchasers of fakes, Rolex would make more money doing that then they do selling the real ones.

Before I get jumped on by everyone, Im NOT siding with the buyer, but I would love to know the actual facts of the case. I find it very interesting that Gomberg was able to accomplish this.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:50 AM by coop » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2012, 08:24 AM »

i feel that if the gomberg situation is to be discussed it should be in another thread, not this one.
Personally as I was not involved in the situation in anyway I am staying out of it....there is way too much I do not know in it.
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2012, 03:22 PM »




This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.
I don't see any invoices from Mr Tan's factories what do you know that I don't

(fixed your damn tags again Rob rob)
My appologies if my info is a bit out of date or incorrect since there have been several changes in where kites are made and its not easy to keep track if your not a manufacturer insider.  I know a few kite companies have added or changed factories a few times over the years.  PRism , FW and I believe HQ now use the same factory where a few years ago prism had its own factory set up by one of Marks friends as a watercraft sail shop originally. Who but them knows whats changed or is changing since I found that info.

As for Mr Tan (Weifang Tan as i have seen him called) I have read from a few places that he is associated with Albatross kites, weifang kites, and a couple other weifang province factories where a lot of the clones are coming from.  Unconfirmed info leads to him being responsible for the wala, nirvanah, sea devil, fearless, some rev, possibly the china TNT and other clones that are obviously copies right down to the sail layout.

I have had a few conversations with the owner of passion kites, who thanks to John Baressi, has stopped selling rev clones and is now working on being an official rev dealer in china.  THat is pushing OEM brands over clones as much as possible so all this talk we do is having an affect even if its only a small one.
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Cyphert
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2013, 12:26 AM »

i would fly it. calling it a knock off is like saying every delta style dual line is a knock off.  i have 4 revs custom made by bazzer and i will be looking at one of these for a full vent option.  i dont believe in one company having a monopoly on kites. i also dont believe in kite companies plastering there names all over all there kites.

seems if some makes a cheeper kite that regular people can afford its a good thing.  i have had people tell me its way different and doesnt fly as well. looks a lot different so that should really only be good for kiting in general. thats what this is about right getting families out on the beach. or is that about only one company making money?

pretty sure a few companies make diamond kites and deltas and foils and dual lines.... am i missing something or should we just try to keep kite flying for the uber rich that can afford a full set of revs. whats a full set go for these days pushing 2k right. sorry ill take a cheaper alternative. (not really i own 4 custom b pros but i support kites for the not super rich). and if you tell me about the cheap rev option thats a load of crap. a full set not just one cheap standard sail.  i dont fly in high wind to justify a matching extra vent and the freilein looks cooler flys as well if not better and is more then half the price.
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alien
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2013, 08:34 AM »

I got hooked flying a chinese cheapy and since have purchased 5 US brand kites and the performance and build is enough to skip the cheap knockoffs for me...err i was a bit startled when i discovered my
 collection is all Chinese made but i am completely happy and will soon purchase more.
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2013, 10:10 AM »

I got hooked flying a chinese cheapy and since have purchased 5 US brand kites and the performance and build is enough to skip the cheap knockoffs for me...err i was a bit startled when i discovered my
 collection is all Chinese made but i am completely happy and will soon purchase more.
There is a difference between a chinese cheapie and a knock off.  X-kites is an example of a cheapie or ultra low budget kite and these fly well but need good amounts of wind. 

i would fly it. calling it a knock off is like saying every delta style dual line is a knock off.  i have 4 revs custom made by bazzer and i will be looking at one of these for a full vent option.  i dont believe in one company having a monopoly on kites. i also dont believe in kite companies plastering there names all over all there kites.

seems if some makes a cheeper kite that regular people can afford its a good thing.  i have had people tell me its way different and doesnt fly as well. looks a lot different so that should really only be good for kiting in general. thats what this is about right getting families out on the beach. or is that about only one company making money?

pretty sure a few companies make diamond kites and deltas and foils and dual lines.... am i missing something or should we just try to keep kite flying for the uber rich that can afford a full set of revs. whats a full set go for these days pushing 2k right. sorry ill take a cheaper alternative. (not really i own 4 custom b pros but i support kites for the not super rich). and if you tell me about the cheap rev option thats a load of crap. a full set not just one cheap standard sail.  i dont fly in high wind to justify a matching extra vent and the freilein looks cooler flys as well if not better and is more then half the price.
WHen it comes to Revs the WHOLE kite is a unique design from the spars to the sail shape and components.  My understanding is all these were patented and/or copywrited.  So any rev look alike is a knockoff period.  Rev does make low budget kite packages (EXP) that are affordable to most people on a lower budget as do many kite makers. Even skyburner has a budget kite set in Jon's freestylist kite.  Were not arguing the merits of cheap kites and I for one will steer someone to a cheap starter kite that I know flies well if its all they can afford.  What we argue is the direct copying and selling of kites and there are exact copies of many big name kites in cheaper materials right down to the graphic layout that don't fly well at all.  Kites like the Rev, TNT, Nirvana, all of Lams kites, Talon, Team next and others i probably havent seen yet are all being cloned and sold by these rip off makers banking on the fact that it looks like a real one and because of that new fliers will assume they fly like the real one but cheaper.  That takes business away from the legit designer/builder and that is wrong.  Also when there is an issue with the kite its not the clone maker that gets the hit its the actual designer that has to deal with it most of the time even if its just posts about how bad it is because it looks the same it gets assumed that the complaint is about the real one by those that don't know any better.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 10:16 AM by Ca Ike » Logged
Cyphert
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2013, 12:16 AM »

200 is not a cheap kite. and its not a full vent. this kite is. it competes with a 450 rev kite.  i have 4 custom rev kites made by bazzer. i have 2 ocius kites made proudly in america. i have 51 prism micron kites made in china. and i plan to have a quad line kite made in china. if rev can sell in china then china can sell in the states.  this kite doesnt take from rev it only adds to the amount of kite flyers on the beach. i like quad line kites and want to see more people out there making them. its goog for kiting. 200 for a cheap rev thats really your answer for ocasional high wind kite flying?  or maybe we could help people get into kiting that would be the better thing to do. sorry if that offends some people but im out for the future of kiting.  not having a high wind options for a quad line kite isnt expectable. a $450 option only or being ridiculed online isnt the best thing for kiting and is why many people dont fly kites. because there isnt an affordable option. most people cant afford 2k for a full rev set up.  the freilein isnt a knock off it doesnt say rev they are not connected to the counterfeiters. they make great kites with great quality that are an option for more then just the super wealthy.
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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2013, 12:24 AM »

revs are high performance pro kites.  pros will use them as soon as other companies start making cheaper quadline kites more people will get into quad line kites and there will be more people wanting to step up to a high quality rev. but for the jo shmo that flies 4 times a year. i would not recommend a rev. i would recommend a 50 buck dual line kite.  200 for a kite that gets used 4 times a year is just dumb. cheap dual lines sell high end dual lines its how things work. its great for kiting. gets quad line kites in peoples hands and gets them on the field and into kiting where they have the chance to then step into a real pro level kite.
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2013, 10:23 AM »

you know there's a choice you haven't mentioned   Sharing!

I want people to experience the best performance kiting money can buy, but not to incur that expense themselves until they are comfortable with the total.  We are a local club in Washington DC and we ask people of interest to NOT buy a kite for two years, instead come fly ours and see what you connect with personally.  I don't want you to buy a used kite or a knock-off, or to even trying building one yourself until you know more.  When you are seriously hooked the final price will not matter at all.  you'll have given-up something else, maybe you had to eat ketchup sandwiches for 2 summers, whatever it takes.

Why drive your bus in the walmart parking lot, when you can take my race car out onto the track instead?  (I can't fly all the kites I have now, neither can my friends!)

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, go buy a gortex rain-suit that fits you perfectly, with armpit zips and ankle zips.  Get shoes and a hat that are truly all weather.  That allows you to join us when it's bad weather outside.
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2013, 10:55 AM »

revs are high performance pro kites.  pros will use them as soon as other companies start making cheaper quadline kites more people will get into quad line kites and there will be more people wanting to step up to a high quality rev. but for the jo shmo that flies 4 times a year. i would not recommend a rev. i would recommend a 50 buck dual line kite.  200 for a kite that gets used 4 times a year is just dumb. cheap dual lines sell high end dual lines its how things work. its great for kiting. gets quad line kites in peoples hands and gets them on the field and into kiting where they have the chance to then step into a real pro level kite.

One of my thoughts on all of this is that Revolution has had a bit of a hand in creating this exact issue....
When High Flyers was open we sold the EXP package with line/handles/video/kite/sleeve for 135$.....and now a EXP - their beginner version even though the rev-heads will try to push new flyers onto the more expensive Pro series - is 199$....reading the descriptions online from shops selling them it looks like there is no reason at all for the price to have jumped up....same things in the package.....but the price went up a lot.....a markedly high percentage that i cannot see benefiting the flyer.......

So...as Revolution has increased their prices they opened the door to allow some other quad line to come in and be a much more affordable step into flying....and if that is a kite from china that looks like that rev shape than so be it...they allowed it....
will Rev ever create a more affordable ~100$ kite again? i doubt it....they are enjoying the money rolling in.....


I would much rather see people share kites out....i know that i have done that with my own kites that i have spares of.....
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 06:41 PM »

i dont think rev should make a cheaper version. rev is a staple of performance made in america.  once they start making cheaper products then it lowers the over all quality of the brand. sharing is always good. but im not going to share my custom b pros. i would share the &%#* out of a Freilein though. 
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2013, 07:10 PM »

200 is not a cheap kite. and its not a full vent. this kite is. it competes with a 450 rev kite.  i have 4 custom rev kites made by bazzer. i have 2 ocius kites made proudly in america. i have 51 prism micron kites made in china. and i plan to have a quad line kite made in china. if rev can sell in china then china can sell in the states.  this kite doesnt take from rev it only adds to the amount of kite flyers on the beach. i like quad line kites and want to see more people out there making them. its goog for kiting. 200 for a cheap rev thats really your answer for ocasional high wind kite flying?  or maybe we could help people get into kiting that would be the better thing to do. sorry if that offends some people but im out for the future of kiting.  not having a high wind options for a quad line kite isnt expectable. a $450 option only or being ridiculed online isnt the best thing for kiting and is why many people dont fly kites. because there isnt an affordable option. most people cant afford 2k for a full rev set up.  the freilein isnt a knock off it doesnt say rev they are not connected to the counterfeiters. they make great kites with great quality that are an option for more then just the super wealthy.
Your completely missing the point.  I will admit that freilien is doing a good thing by breaking the cheap china crap stigma and they do make some good duals.  However, their windrider is a as near to an exact copy of a rev as you can get minus the panel layout.  Look at the detailed pics posted on their site and everything from sail shape to the unique shaped hole in the fittings is exactly like a rev.  Just because they aren't tied to the big known cloners doesn't mean they aren't making copies. 

Now the quad they make that is their own that I'm thinking of trying out is the windrider "Transeye" model.  I looks like a cross between the spirit quad new tech had a few years back with a bit of rev sonic thrown in and reminds me of a pair of sunglasses.
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« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2013, 01:38 AM »

i dont think rev should make a cheaper version. rev is a staple of performance made in america.  once they start making cheaper products then it lowers the over all quality of the brand....

Having some of their product made in China and priced cheaper than if they were US made has not lowered the quality of the Prism brand.  What it has done is allow people without boutique wallets to get Mark Reed developed sport kite of good quality without paying a boutique price.

On the few occasions that Prism release US made Quantum Pros, the price reflects the point of origin and there are plenty of people willing to purchase.  Seems to be the best of both worlds.

Yes, people are still prepared to pay a premium price for some US made Revs.  The ones made by Bazzer are especially sought after (and rightly so, I have a bagful!).  But reading comments on the forums over the past few years leads me to believe a lot of people would be happier if the base models EXPs could be made better without a jump in price.  Perhaps there is room for a Chinese manufactured genuine Revolution in the market.

If this were to happen, I suspect the licensed Chinese manufacturer would find it easier preventing other Chinese factories counterfeiting than the parent company.

Just my 2 cents...
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« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2013, 04:31 AM »

Hi Guys,
   It's been about 10 months since I started this post. After this post being dead for quite a while it seems to have been woken up, so I thought I would give an update on me and the Freilein kite. The Freilein has been sold and I now own 3 Revs. a B-Series Night I purchased new from A Wind OF Change, B-series Mid Vent and a Power Blast. I did keep my first Chinese Quad Kite because it flies so well and I paid $75 RTF.  I must say that if I did not start out with the cheaper Chinese Quad kite I would not have purchased these 3 Revs.  (I'm looking to buy more). So Revolution should be thanking the Chinese for their knockoffs and bringing more people into quad flying. I'm sure that I'm not the only one to test the waters with a cheaper kite and then move on to a better kite.
   Thanks for every ones input, Mark
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 04:52 AM by kiteflyer » Logged
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