GWTW Forum
November 22, 2014, 09:10 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 [2] 3 ... 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: SUL kites for really low winds?  (Read 11428 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
madhabitz
Trade Count: (+4)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 781


Location: Pleasanton, CA

« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 09:54 PM »

 Bryan: Floaty is good!! Thanks ;-)

Peter:  I think part of what you said is eluding me because I am feeling some confusion. I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?

You have an Ocius SUL? Well there you go. ;-)




(Edited to fix Bryan's misspelled (by me) name. My apologies)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:18 AM by madhabitz » Logged

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten-thousand ways that won't work."   -Thomas Edison
tpatter
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2004

Location: Seattle, WA

WWW
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 10:46 PM »


That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Have you ever seen one in the Swap Meet?

Well, you can always hope! 

I've seen only 2 TNT on this forum that I recall, and neither was a Zero.  Of course, Hugo is the new guy on the block by the same designer(s) (not sure), so the way these things go, you could see one show up once the zero version of the Hugo comes out, sometime, in a galaxy not too far away.  Smiley

Anyhow, and I kid you not, if you do not have the patience to wait for a Zero to hit the swap (in either CA, Germany, or some other forum), then you will need some level of patience as there is a 2 month build queue on the TNT.  It would be an interesting to see how you can get one more quickly - swap or build.

When I first flew the TNT UL, I knew the Zero would be pretty darn sweet.  I thought, put this floaty laid-back style in an SUL and the toes will curl.  Now, it looks like I will have to outdrawn you on the PM!  Smiley

Either way, I really want to fly one.

Tom
Logged

6 kite tom
madhabitz
Trade Count: (+4)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 781


Location: Pleasanton, CA

« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 12:26 AM »


Now, it looks like I will have to outdrawn you on the PM!  Smiley

Either way, I really want to fly one.

Tom


My PM trigger finger is getting better and better, so you can try if you want.  Kiss

I'd like to fly one too.

Nancy
Logged

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten-thousand ways that won't work."   -Thomas Edison
Allen Carter
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+19)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1842

Location: Half Moon Bay, CA

« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 10:10 AM »

I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?


The lower the wind speed, the more wind quality becomes an issue. 2MPH on that soccer field in Ripon is a LOT different than 2MPH on the beach in Seaside. Wind quality is often determined by location.

That said, skill and experience is a MUCH bigger issue at 2MPH than at 3MPH. In other words, the lower the wind speed, the harder it is to fly regardless of the location.

As for the original post, a kite that is easier to "fly" in light wind than a QPro SUL or Ocius SUL will be harder to "trick". Two things that make a kite easy to do modern tricks with, sail shape and balance, make the kite harder to keep flying in a straight line when the wind is low. There's a pretty strict trade off in light wind between ease of flight and trickability.

Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
ae
Trade Count: (+2)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 429


Location: Germany - Berlin

« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 12:35 PM »

The air temperature also plays a role. Hotter air is less dense, less air in the same volume of space, less pressure it can create.
Moisture also plays a part for the same reasons.

The hotter and drier the air, aka summer the more wind you need compared to a moist cold winder day. The difference can be easily as 1mph in difference between been able to fly or having to work to keep the kite even in the air.
Logged
Wayner
Trade Count: (+18)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1112


Location: Las Vegas, NV

« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2012, 02:31 PM »

The hotter and drier the air, aka summer the more wind you need compared to a moist cold winder day. The difference can be easily as 1mph in difference between been able to fly or having to work to keep the kite even in the air.

That explains my summer here in the desert  Huh

All the moving around did help me get in shape Wink
Logged
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3117


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2012, 11:20 PM »

Actually, dry air is more dense* denser than humid air.

Cold, dry, low altitude.    Good

Hot, humid, high altitude.    Bad

*Changed to the incorrect form for zippy8.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:22 AM by chilese » Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
zippy8
Moderator
Trade Count: (+13)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1021


Location: Vihtavuori, Finland

WWW
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 06:52 AM »

Actually, dry air is denser than humid air.
"More dense", please  Wink

I've just got my sticky paws on a pristine example of an SUL for really low winds - 122 grammes of Synchro #1 Hybrid. Sail still crisp, bridle clean, fittings rotted to dust.  Shocked Pictures to follow but I anticipate it working like a charm in the very sub-zero and low relative humidity "winds" of Central Finland come wintertime.

Mike.
Logged

Virtual Freestyle - ǝlʎʇsǝǝɹɟ lɐnʇɹıʌ
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3117


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 10:17 AM »

Looking forward to the photos Mike.

What do you plan to use for the new fittings?

Just for zippy8
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:21 AM by chilese » Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
zippy8
Moderator
Trade Count: (+13)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1021


Location: Vihtavuori, Finland

WWW
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 11:33 AM »

Looking forward to the photos Mike.

Few Europeans will recognise the graphic.

Quote
What do you plan to use for the new fittings?

The extensive notes call for 3/16 x 1/32 Superthane and I shall endeavour to comply.

Quote

I do not dispute that the word denser exists, I assert that it is not correct in that context. And I both note and applaud your amendment  Smiley

Mike.
Logged

Virtual Freestyle - ǝlʎʇsǝǝɹɟ lɐnʇɹıʌ
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3117


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2012, 05:32 PM »

Very nice Synchro Mike.

You are a fan of black if I recall.

Nice of you to go after NOS fittings instead of going TAPA.

Any applause I get from zippy8 is welcome.

I worship the ground you float above.  Smiley
Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
ae
Trade Count: (+2)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 429


Location: Germany - Berlin

« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2012, 06:14 PM »

Nice Syncro Smiley
I have one as well.

And good call on the connectors, those TAPA are way to heavy.
I fixed mine up with PTFE tubing as connectors, works like a charm.
Logged
RobB
Trade Count: (+9)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1415


Location: Long Island

WWW
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2012, 06:48 PM »


That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Have you ever seen one in the Swap Meet?

Everything might pass through the Swap Meet, if you keep your eyes open, you can grab some great kites and/or great bargains. Half the kites I have I bought second hand.
I really want to fly a TNT, but don't want to spend that kind of cake to just try one out, maybe I'll like it, maybe I won't...
Logged

damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55

Location: UK

« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2012, 05:23 PM »

Peter:  I think part of what you said is eluding me because I am feeling some confusion. I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?

Dear Nancy,
When I wrote that "Mark honestly lists his SUL as for 2 to 10mph", I meant that he lists it for winds starting at 2mph, while others claim their SULs can handle lower wind speeds.
I believe what Mark says.  However having seen his kites flying at festivals and having tried one myself, I think that he tends to build them slightly heavier than others in order to having them handle and trick the way he wants.   
I wonder if the winds around Kettering are better than where I fly.  I suspect that they are higher, or maybe Mark prefers higher winds, and nowadays I prefer lower winds.
 


Here is a little background from some years ago which explains some of how I got to where I am today:

Back in 2007/2008 we met Mark Clements at a fly meet.  The winds that day were repeatedly dying to around 1 to 3mph. In those days the Talon hadn't come out, but Mark leant me his Trident UL to see how I liked it.  - I really struggled to keep it airborne.     The only kites that seemed to be coping that day were a couple of Prism Ozones (one was ours), which were limited in their tricking, and a Deep Space (before its UL came out), but flyers pointed out that it was being flown by Andy Wardley.  He kept on "racheting" it into the air.

At that time we already had a Deep Space of our own, and also a Fury UL that fell out of the sky at 2 1/2 mph and below.  I don't recall us having an Inner Space at that point.  It was the experience with the Trident UL that forced us to accept that we would have look further afield for light wind kite, and be prepared to order from other countries.  As we could keep the Prism QPro standard in the air down to around 2mph, and we generally liked the kite, it seemed a fair bet that a QPro SUL would come closer than any locally available UL to what we wanted.  - But where to get one from?

- We ended up tracking one down in a shop in Florida I think. - We liked that one so much that about 8 months to a year later we got a second from a shop I think somewhere in the US mid-west. 

Weight versus size wise, I think that Talons are generally heavier than many competing kites.   Mark has weight in the kite (e.g. the leading edges besides any tail weight) to help in tricking.  So looking at the statistics for size and weight, I decided not to buy his kites for very light winds.   

Quote
You have an Ocius SUL? Well there you go. ;-)
Smiley
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 01:45 AM by damp_weather » Logged
damp_weather
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55

Location: UK

« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2012, 02:21 AM »

Dear Craig,

You already have all the low wind kites you need,
I am coming round that that way of thinking. - Am not expecting to buy another kite soon.

Quote
more practice will get you further than buying something new.
Arggh! - You have mentioned the "practice" word!

To explain, this is a very sensitive subject with me.
So often English flyers have told me to: practice, practice, Practice - but practice what?  Keep attempting a manoeuvre or trick in the hope that one day it will work, and then somehow it will keep working?  Maybe this is how others manage to learn...

Craig, we really appreciated you teaching my partner the axel at Portsmouth in 2009.  After years of "practicing", a few minutes tuition and she had done her first reliable axels.  We had something to solidify then.  At that point I had been doing axels for a couple of years, but hadn't been able to pin-point where Debbie was going wrong.
And further back, when we started, Piero Serra (before he became famous) taught me the fade launch and lateral role.  I had to experiment with the fade launch to understand what was happening and then it became reliable - this was some years later - but nevertheless we really appreciated him helping us.  Saved probably tens even hundreds of hours of experimenting.  Also he showed me how to axel into the window, or was it how to axel out of the window?  Which ever it was, it was the one I couldn't do before, and I never forgot the lesson - something learnt very fast.

Beyond a certain point, videos don't appear to work.  Very often, when I stumble across how to do something, I discover what was missing from the video description.  But it is very slow progress.

It would be nice to have more tricks tuition, but I don't know if it is possible. - Not only regarding peoples' time, but also whether really good flyers consciously know how they do tricks, and can describe and demonstrate that to others, identifying and correcting faults as well as showing the correct way.
(I am only talking about tricks tuition here.  In the UK precision flying and ballet is excellently taught at STACK boot-camp etc..)


So practice - I have to accept that at the rate I am progressing, it should be many more tens of years before I have mastered the standard range of tricks.  Have to grab each little breakthrough as it occurs.  But after several years of frequently travelling to watch and fly near my betters and generally learning very little more than in their hands my kite will do the trick I am attempting, I am happier to fly locally, surrounded by friendly dogs and their owners, all ages playing football, and occasional outdoor fitness classes.  That way I can experiment without looking too incompetant at the tricks I can't do right, and getting more and more frustrated at no-one explaining.

In the positive words of Dean Parsons at the start of his "Progress" kite video (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4-w6vHU31w):
"WE LEARNED SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT TODAY...
...WE FOUND ANOTHER WAY THAT DOESN'T WORK.
WE MUST KEEP OUR MINDS OPEN AND TRY AGAIN."

...for me, after a good flying session, usually that has to count as progress.

The other maxim which I learned the hard way (by repeatedly ignoring the last bit of it) that is good for life in general and kite flying in particular is:
"If at first you don't succeed,
  try, try and try again.
And then give up.
  It is no use being a dam fool about it."


- Which brings us back to the subject of getting more kites.  In the absence of good tuition, trying different kites is an attempt to learn through new experiences.  Sometimes it works.  Thanks to the QPro SUL, I learnt to taz before I knew that was what it was called, and that it was supposed to be such a hard trick that I wasn't supposed to be able to do it before mastering loads of others.  The kite just repeatedly handed out this neat manoeuvre.  Many months later I found that it couldn't be done on a Deep Space so easily.  It took a couple of months to figure out what to do on the DS.
- And even if I don't get the benefit of a short cut to new tricks, I was hoping from this thread to find something that flew as comfortably in stillish air as an Inner Space, but gave a different experience regarding different tricks or maybe flying indoors.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:04 PM by damp_weather » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 ... 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!