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Author Topic: From Antelope Island an interesting discussion on Kite Copies  (Read 3932 times)
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boomertype
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« on: September 10, 2012, 04:22 AM »

Dean Jordan speaks . . .
dean jordan talks about kite design and copying
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 09:29 AM »

It's not a bad thing to have this discuss but I'll share my opinion...

Dean is the _LAST_ person to even start to comment on a copy of a kite. In my book Dean Jordan should just shut his yap hole and move on.

Dean thinks that _any_ kite that even remotly looks like one of his designs _is_ a copy of his kite. I'm not putting words in his mouth... this is what _he_ has stated. By those standards, every stunt kite ever made is a copy of the first stunt kite ever made.

Now if Dean wanted to have an opinion that would be fine... if it was not 100% hypocritical. He knows full well that he took Jalbert and Huge (Stretch) Tuckers flow form design and copied it. Lay a Jordan flow form rib on a Bull Dog rib and they are idential! I'm not using Dean's thought if it looks the same, it is the same... I'm saying they _are exactly the same_.

If Dean had his way we'd all be paying him royalties for using RSN. Dean lives in the past and will do just about anything to make a buck off this past.

If you think I'm being harsh... I am. It's well deserved. Dean seems to think he owns the all flow form designs. You hear him even in this video and he thinks everyone who's ever made a flow form kite owes him money. Truth is... I can use Dean's design and make a 100% copy of "his" flow form and I don't owe him 1 dime. If something is owed, I should be paying the people who actually put the hard work into the design of that kite! While I know Dean is making this statement to get people to pay him money, he seems to indicate he just wants to get kite people on board in order to help the industy. In reality, he's doing nothing but hurting it as he's trying to apply his destorted version of a "copy" only in an attempt to collect money from other fliers.

Let me share some thoughts on the other end of the spectrum....

Revolution. They have not owed a patent on their quad line kite for years now (they do own the Revolution trademark). People are making copies of their kites left and right. There are _thousands_ of Rev copies out on the fields being flown. Do you see Rev going around and badmouthing the people that built those copies? Nope. Is Rev still selling kites? HECK YES... by the truck load! They are able to do this not only because they have people like Ben and John B doing a great job but also because they understand how business works. They have a product out there that they still can make money from. They don't need to bamboozle people into paying them money based on their own rhetoric..  So when you look at a "copy" kite I think you also need to consider if that copy is legal but more so... why did the person "copy" the kite. Were they trying to make the exact same kite and also, were they trying to make a buck off of it or just make something a little different for themselves.

When considering what is a "copy" of a kite, many more things need to be considered. Mainly, the intent of the person who "copied" the kite.

BTW - When Dean it confronted with this information (that his flowform is a copy)... he suddenly does not have any comment. Deans' also given his permission to have people make his flow form and then come back to them for payment (and he's been paid... even though nothing was owed not only because he does not own the design but also because he gave his permission to allow the kites to be made for free).

As I said, if Dean or anyone wants to have their opinion about a "copy", I think that is great. I jsut have little regard for Dean's "opinion" because it's obvious he's just trying to fleece kite fliers.
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 10:00 AM »

AMEN!
Well said
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chilese
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 11:31 AM »

Thanks for your candid thoughts on the subject.

Dean has ruffled the feathers of many people directly and indirectly.

At the same time, he also has made designs that are mainly his.

His delivery is a bit brusk and does little to endear him to people

he meets for the first time.
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 12:29 PM »

At the same time, he also has made designs that are mainly his.
Not according to his own (crazy) definition of a copy.

Sent from my Samsung S3
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 01:57 PM »

Now, I'll add my two cents.
I was involved in a FB comment thread about about how Dean's Rev was sort of a copied theme of a Gibian Rev from two years ago. I hadn't noticed the close resemblance to Gibian's newer Rev shown in the video.
The older one was the "Night Creeper" Rev.
All that said, I thought it strange in the FB thread that Dean had made a Rev do close to the other, with Dean's proclivity to raise a stink about copies and then this video pops up.
I think he needs to give it up! Sad
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 03:14 PM »

Dean only raises a stink about "copy kites" (which are not really even close to a copy) when he can possibly money coming his way. Every time he opens his yap hole on the subject he discredits the people who have _real_ complaints about _real_ kite copy issues.

I just get _really_ insulted when a person does _exactly_ what they claim other people should not do and does so with the sole intent of fleecing people to pad their own pocket.

You don't see Ben going to events and demanding money from everyone with a Rev copy kite. How long do you think Rev would last if they started doing that? But even if they did, I'd have to give them 100% more respect as at least they are still making Revs. Deans not even in the business of making Jordan flow forms any longer. So not only does he not have any rights to the kite, not only does he not have skin in the game but he only raises a stink to put money in his own pocket.

Oh, _he_ gets permission to build other peoples kites but when other people get his permission he then seems to forget about that and demands that he be paid a fee (which is was... even though he had no leg to stand on).

It's just said that some people think it's so cool to know Dean Jordan that they take what he says as the truth. I rememeber talking to Dodd Gross years ago about the subject of copying his designs. I could tell it's not  subject he liked to talk about but what he told me was that he would hope that if someone took his design that they would change it in some way and make it different (after all, all stunt kites are based on the same design)... what was the point in making the same kite. Dean's view is its a copy of it even looks the same (seeing it in the air flying). Heck, he's even pointed out that just because he may not have done something it does not mean he's not _thought_ of it first.

BTW - I'm not making any of this up... Dean himself has put it in writing.

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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 03:27 PM »

dean is making his airforms again.....he never stopped - except when he was laid up...

Jeff Howard and Carl Robertshaw and Rod Thrall all have rights to produce them and sell them....and if I understand correctly the HQ KAP Foil is a liscensed airform as well....
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 04:05 PM »

Jeff's flow form is the Pro Airform. Why is it called something different if it's the same kite? Also, it uses drops. Deans kites did not. But Dean probably thought of that idea at some point so I guess it really is his idea.

Dean never stopped making Air Forms... if you subscribe to the fact that it could take years to get one from him.

Selling a kite commercially certainly paints a larger target on your back.
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 05:06 PM »

jeff's profrom is an airform by design with slight modifications not certain what you are referring to as a "drop".....but Jeff's do(or did not) have inner cel walls..the top skin and lower skin were bridled together essentially...something that Dean is now doing on his new kites to drop weight...
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 08:58 AM »

 I do need to correct one thing... it's a Sutton that the Airform matches... not the Bull Dog. Still way before the Airform.

Part of my point is that kites are going to look like other kites. Kites _are_ going to be designed based on prior designs. That is not a bad thing... unless you simply bring it up in order to extort money from other kite fliers.
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 10:46 AM »

Now, I'll add my two cents.
I was involved in a FB comment thread about about how Dean's Rev was sort of a copied theme of a Gibian Rev from two years ago. I hadn't noticed the close resemblance to Gibian's newer Rev shown in the video.
The older one was the "Night Creeper" Rev.
All that said, I thought it strange in the FB thread that Dean had made a Rev do close to the other, with Dean's proclivity to raise a stink about copies and then this video pops up.
I think he needs to give it up! Sad

Not sure about the prior FB kite or discussion - but just to be clear the kite in the video was made in the last 2 months just specifically for the discussion at AISF about copying versus inspiration in design and decoration.

There was no discussion about parafoil/flow form type design issues.  And no discussion about Revolution copies.  A little about the fairly universal hatred of Chinese copies.

Whatever he may have said or done in the past, I will give dean credit for trying for a positive tone - sorry to see this is so predominantly negative.
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 11:09 AM »


Whatever he may have said or done in the past, I will give dean credit for trying for a positive tone - sorry to see this is so predominantly negative.

Knowing nothing about the history of any of this, that was my feeling as well - very positive from what I saw.  He mentions multiple times that he is asking questions for thought and not soliciting or giving any potential resolution to the ideas discussed.


-Tom
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 01:07 PM »

He's always made this argument in a "positive" tone. That is, made it as a "question" or "put it out there" for other people to consider as this makes it all sound benign. He puts it this way as he knows he really has no valid argument for getting paid for "his" designs and really, this is all he is interested in.

There really are many different levels of a "copy". You can't have any argument about the subject without admitting that this is true. There is a complete difference between a Chinese company copying Gomberg's octopus, using his photos to sell it (with Gomberg standing in the foreground) and selling these commercially to the masses. As compared to showing what Dean showed as comparison to Ron's kite. The fact that they were both Rev type kites is moot. If one painter paint one bird and other painted a different bird, would it be a copy? Of course not. Same thing with that kite. But to go one step further... what was the reason Dean made the kite. Was it to mass produce them and sell to the masses? Was he trying to make an exact copy of someone else’s kite? No... he simply saw a kite he liked and made one that was like it. Same way that all car manufactures make cars with 4 wheels, a round steering wheel, bucket seats, etc. Same way I can see a painting and paint something like it.

Dean would have every believe if the kite _looks_ like his... it's a copy. I'm not making that up... I'm not putting words in his mouth... he's posted that himself. As if a flow form kite can looks completely different (as if he made his design to start with). Another well-known kite designer's view is if you put points on the leading edge that its a different kite. This difference of opinion is why you _need_ to consider the background of the "copy" kite. Without it, the argument is pointless.

Again, Dean's only reason for bringing it all up is that he feels that people should pay him for what he considers his work. I don't even know if he cares about people acknowledging his work (perhaps this as well... who knows).

My only issue is that he's not helping kiting... he’s' 100% hurting it. Kiters _should feel free to see a kite and get inspired by it_! They should _not_ have to ask themselves,  "is Dean Jordan going to ask me to pay him if I build this kite". They should not feel that the kiting community is going to harass them if they build a similar kite. Now if they are going to make a 100% copy in order to sell it to the masses, that is a different matter.
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 01:47 PM »

A copy doesn't have to be 100% to be a copy. Putting points on an existing design doesn't necessarily make it your own. It's still a copy.
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