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Author Topic: Bridle Modification  (Read 4390 times)
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Spz0
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« on: May 28, 2009, 08:36 AM »

Could someone describe for me, the changes in flight when you lengthen or shorten your bridle lines, as a whole, and in specific (inhaul, lower outhaul, upper outhaul).
I would love to understand this more.
Im thinking of messing around with my Widow's bridle, to try and curb some oversteering issues I have with it.
I've already got the factory standard measurements for it, and was thinking of shortening all of my bridle legs by 1", and installing pigtails on my LE at the lower outhaul, and spine section for the inhaul -- with 3 or 4 overhand knots at 1/2" intervals.

Any help would be immensely appreciated.  Smiley

~Jon
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anOldMan
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 10:23 AM »

If you really want to do this you can start Here - http://www.andywardley.com/kites/bridle/index.html

For the basics on kites and bridles go here - http://www.ian.ourshack.org/kitedesign/index.html

And you can always spend hours with the links from here - http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=105.0

Best hunting. Smiley Wink Smiley

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anOldMan
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 10:37 AM »

There's a few things that can cause oversteer in a kite.

1.  Too much tail weight.  If you're flying a mostly stock kite and like the weight for backflips/yoyo's and such move on to 2 or 3.

2.  Tow point is set low on the kite.  Most kites are adjustable in this aspect so you can try moving the bridle tow point up and see if that remedies the problem.

3.  Tow points are too close together.  This is common on some kites.  It's really a matter of personal preference for the feel of the kite.  If you are heavy handed or like larger arm movements you can lengthen your inhaul bridle lines.  That should give you more arm movement and lessen the amount of oversteer.  This will have the largest effects on other aspects of the kite.  In some cases it will make the fade harder or easier to lock in.  It will also effect other tricks.

Changing the bridle on a kite can go a long way to making the kite feel better or worse in your hands.  I'd suggest you have some way to configure the kite back exactly the way it was originally so you have something to work from.  Take measurements of everything and write them down.  Then make your changes that you want to try.  If it doesn't improve the kite's feel you are always able to move it back.

I personally "try" not to change kites much anymore.  The designer built it with their feel/preference in mind.  Changing your technique can make it fly like you want.  Although, some kites you'll just never click with.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:44 AM by CTaylor » Logged

Gardner
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 11:13 AM »

Hi CTaylor,

In some cases, not all, lengthening the inhaul and/or shortening the outhaul will cure oversteer Smiley. To find the right combination is a matter of trial and error a quarter of an inch at a time Angry.  A  word of caution, don't do both bridle legs at the same time Cry.  Maybe shortening the outhaul will work the first time; maybe an outhaul adjustment will work

The amount of oversteer also depends on what the kite was built to to preform.  A kite built for tricks will never have the precision of a freestyle kite and a freestyle will never be as precise as a ballet kite.

If there are experienced kite flyers in your area, ask them to give you a hand.
Most will be willing to help.

Gardner
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fidelio
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 02:24 PM »

maybe we could talk randyg into making a tutorial which contains some 'general rules' about bridle modification. as in lengthen this leg, expect this. shorten this leg, this happens, etc.

he's a great candidate because he's very knowledgeable, has the experience necessary, is great at making tutorials we can all understand, has the video flying, filming and editing skills, and i happen to know his bridles are already setup for easy changes in length of individual legs. plus he's just a really friendly guy who's willing to help, who shares the passion.

the only problem is he's pretty busy and might not have the time.

he REALLY knows how to tune a kite  Cool and imo such a video would be a great addition to the fantastic set he's already created.
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Spz0
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 02:28 PM »

Thanks for all the info ppl  Smiley
I 'do' have the default measurements for my bridle, so I think Im going to go ahead and make pigtail adjustments for the inhaul and lower outhaul lines (as I already have a pigtail adjuster on the upper outhaul for wind adjustment).
I was out today gettin use to the Widow (the wind hasn't been up enough for her to fly).  I ended up shortening the inhauls by 1/4" (by tying an extra overhand knot at the base of the larkshead attached to the spine).
I did this with the following in mind:
Plain and simple, the Widow flies better with the lines crossed over eachother once or twice.  What that is telling me (by deductive reasoning -- tell me if Im wrong here) is that my inhauls need to be pulled in a little.   When the lines are crossed over, its naturally pulling the bridle in and down a little, right?
That being said, thats the reason I tied off the inhauls by 1/4".   I also lowered the upper outhaul by 1/2" (I have pigtails on the upper L.E. fittings for wind adjustment).
Seems to be flying a little more straight and narrow now, although with the towpoint lowered, its a little resistant to launching.
Im thinking maybe I should in turn, move the tow points up a bit to compensate?  
Talk about trial and error.  heh

I use to have a cross active setup on my Widow, but I took it off.  Having my upper outhaul pulled in like it was (even though it was only a little) was nerfing my kite all together in flight.  Too much rocking too and frow.  After that I tried pulling in only my inhaul, by attaching a line from the inhaul to my upper L.E. fittings -- pulling the line in only a little.  To be honest, I couldnt notice any difference,, although the winds were a bit high.  I've seen that setup on other kites, but do not know what it is called, nor do I know the benefits of it.

umm,,, discuss?    hehe  Wink
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Spz0
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 02:28 PM »

maybe we could talk randyg into making a tutorial which contains some 'general rules' about bridle modification. as in lengthen this leg, expect this. shorten this leg, this happens, etc.

he's a great candidate because he's very knowledgeable, has the experience necessary, is great at making tutorials we can all understand, has the video flying, filming and editing skills, and i happen to know his bridles are already setup for easy changes in length of individual legs. plus he's just a really friendly guy who's willing to help, who shares the passion.

the only problem is he's pretty busy and might not have the time.

he REALLY knows how to tune a kite  Cool and imo such a video would be a great addition to the fantastic set he's already created.


Agreed  Smiley  Randy is indeed the man
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DaveH
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 02:33 PM »

Spzo,
I have a lot of time on the Widow. If I may, try taking the weight out.  I fly mine without weight and still get really really tight rollups, but with much less oversteer. Backspins are lots easier too, because the kite is more stable in pitch.   Just a thought... Wink
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Spz0
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 02:35 PM »

aye, I have the weight out on that sucker already.  Even took the little plastic ferrule cover off.

I think I may be just expecting too much out of her.   Or maybe its the inexperience flowing out through the lines, and into the Widow Shocked
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 02:38 PM by Spz0 » Logged
Spz0
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 03:19 PM »

Thanks for all the info ppl  Smiley
I 'do' have the default measurements for my bridle, so I think Im going to go ahead and make pigtail adjustments for the inhaul and lower outhaul lines (as I already have a pigtail adjuster on the upper outhaul for wind adjustment).
I was out today gettin use to the Widow (the wind hasn't been up enough for her to fly).  I ended up shortening the inhauls by 1/4" (by tying an extra overhand knot at the base of the larkshead attached to the spine).
I did this with the following in mind:
Plain and simple, the Widow flies better with the lines crossed over eachother once or twice.  What that is telling me (by deductive reasoning -- tell me if Im wrong here) is that my inhauls need to be pulled in a little.   When the lines are crossed over, its naturally pulling the bridle in and down a little, right?
That being said, thats the reason I tied off the inhauls by 1/4".   I also lowered the upper outhaul by 1/2" (I have pigtails on the upper L.E. fittings for wind adjustment).
Seems to be flying a little more straight and narrow now, although with the towpoint lowered, its a little resistant to launching.
Im thinking maybe I should in turn, move the tow points up a bit to compensate?  
Talk about trial and error.  heh

I use to have a cross active setup on my Widow, but I took it off.  Having my upper outhaul pulled in like it was (even though it was only a little) was nerfing my kite all together in flight.  Too much rocking too and frow.  After that I tried pulling in only my inhaul, by attaching a line from the inhaul to my upper L.E. fittings -- pulling the line in only a little.  To be honest, I couldnt notice any difference,, although the winds were a bit high.  I've seen that setup on other kites, but do not know what it is called, nor do I know the benefits of it.

umm,,, discuss?    hehe  Wink

I need to really stress that prior finding, that the kite just flies better with the lines crossed.  When the lines are arent crossed over, there's a noticeable difference in control.
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mikenchico
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 03:41 PM »

My opinion on the Widows oversteer is weight, the Widow Maker doesn't really suffer from it, the Widow does, especially in light winds. Since the kites are identical in sail shape and you've corrected the bridle (some early production models had bridle problems) and still find the oversteer to be objectionable you might try reducing some weight. The Widows P300 frame is 14 grams heavier then the Widow Makers Nitro frame. I don't know what would happen to the kites response & handling if you swapped out the lower leading edges and even the spreaders for P200's but if you fly mostly in low winds it might be another option to look at if you have some spare rods about.

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Spz0
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 03:53 PM »

hehe, that is essentially my next step. I've already swapped out the lower spreaders with P200's and the solid ferrule with a hollow core ferrule, and next Im going to swap the leading edges.  P300s are 2 grams heavier than the P200s.  The ferrules used are also solid core, which are 2 grams heavier than the hollow core.  Replace those with hollow core and I save another 4 grams per side (including the nock end ferrules).  So, with the spreaders and the leading edge upgraded to P200s, I will shed almost an ounce.  22grams by my count.

I was thinking about the whole pendulum theory with the oversteer factor on the widow.  Good to hear someone else is as well.  lol
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 04:01 PM by Spz0 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 04:36 PM »

My opinion on the Widows oversteer is weight, the Widow Maker doesn't really suffer from it, the Widow does, especially in light winds. Since the kites are identical in sail shape and you've corrected the bridle (some early production models had bridle problems) and still find the oversteer to be objectionable you might try reducing some weight. The Widows P300 frame is 14 grams heavier then the Widow Makers Nitro frame. I don't know what would happen to the kites response & handling if you swapped out the lower leading edges and even the spreaders for P200's but if you fly mostly in low winds it might be another option to look at if you have some spare rods about.



Agree.

Also might change out those end nocks and ferrules.  Those suckers are heavy...   
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Spz0
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 09:08 PM »

Agree.

Also might change out those end nocks and ferrules.  Those suckers are heavy...   

2x agreed
at least 2 grams heavier than hollow ferrules and nocks by my count.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 03:12 AM »


Plain and simple, the Widow flies better with the lines crossed over eachother once or twice.  What that is telling me (by deductive reasoning -- tell me if Im wrong here) is that my inhauls need to be pulled in a little.   When the lines are crossed over, its naturally pulling the bridle in and down a little, right?

You're wrong.
 
Smiley


In flight each leg of the bridle is pulled tight. The tow point pigtails get pulled a tiny bit towards each other when the lines are wrapped, but the geometry of the bridle doesn't change.

I don't know if you have any other fliers in your area, but I've always found it helpful to put a troubled kite into someone else's hands for an opinion. I've had experienced flyers make an intuitive adjustment or two that had been eluding me, or just show me that the kite is really OK by flying it a bit.

Have fun with the bridle mods. It's certainly more art than science. It can really suck up perfectly good flying time, but if you're in it for the long haul it's useful knowledge.



« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 03:29 AM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
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