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Author Topic: Length of Leading edges.  (Read 1868 times)
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jecko
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« on: November 04, 2012, 07:00 PM »

Hi Guys,

I have a newbie question.

I've seen most kites with longer upper leading edge than lower leading edge, but I've seen some with shorter upper leading edge and longer lower leading. Anyone knows the advantage and disadvantage on these.



Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 Smiley
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tpatter
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 07:12 PM »

I think it's all just part if the design.  Given only the LE lengths, I'm not sure if any meaningful conclusions could be drawn.

Longer is usually a larger kite, shorter smaller.  Larger usually pulls more, flys slower, better precision, less agile but these may not hold for any given kite. 

Also, heavier LEs can give more mass for tricks, but can also lead to other side effects.   
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sugarbaker
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 09:39 PM »

Many kites are designed with a 32.5" lower leading edge. This is the length that most spars come in, so if you break the LLE doing a tip stab for example, it's usually a pretty easy fix.  The problem with a longer LLE is if you break down the LE for storage... Because it is longer, the wing tip ends up extending past the nose when folded, resulting in a longer kite in its stored position (if you break it down).  For this reason, the kite may have a longer upper leading edge. 

Then, there is the weight issue.  Some kites are designed to have the ferrule located in relation to the rotational mass/ balance point for exactly the reason Tom mentioned.  This will change the kite's behavior in most aspects of freestyle flying.
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Krijn
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 10:58 PM »

another important reason:

the lower leading edge will break much sooner than the upper

replacing it is easier when it is al full length, can be done on the field without measuring tape and saw
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jecko
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 11:56 PM »

Hi guys,

Firstly Thanks for the replies.

So apart from the quick/easy fix , for the LLE to be 32.5", would a longer LLE gives a better rotation in tricks like say multilazies and taz in a 2.1ish size kite?



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Allen Carter
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 12:18 AM »

LE configuration is more of an issue with tapered sticks. Weight distribution is a bigger deal as one end of the stick is a lot lighter than the other and the joint, with a big ferrule, is heavy. Flex is the other big difference. The position of the joint can change almost whole frame. Sometimes having the joint closer to the lower spreader stiffens up everything. Sometimes that stiffness screws everything up.

Another factor with tapered sticks is that using the shorter stick as the LLE means you have a stiffer/stronger wing tip.

I try most new frames both ways and consider the various trade-offs.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:20 AM by Allen Carter » Logged

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Hadge
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 02:28 AM »

Another reason for the long/short LE lengths can also be to reduce breakages. If you have equal length LE sections then the ferrule - and therefore the weak spot - will be in the middle where stain is greatest when the LE is bent. As a result it can lead to breakages - my HQ Jive was very prone to this.  If you use the long/short LE the weak spot is moved away from the point of greatest strain.
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jecko
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 10:07 PM »

Thank you all for replies, Smiley

I now understand abit more about the purpose of the long/short LLE. I'm trying to figure out beside the bridle setting, what makes some kite do rotational tricks easier than other kites. I'm also trying to learn how the balance of kite will affect on some tricks.
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Hadge
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 01:53 AM »

Thank you all for replies, Smiley

I now understand abit more about the purpose of the long/short LLE. I'm trying to figure out beside the bridle setting, what makes some kite do rotational tricks easier than other kites. I'm also trying to learn how the balance of kite will affect on some tricks.
  Grin


Have a read through here:-

http://www.ian.ourshack.org/kitedesign/index.html

This should give you a good insight on general kite design.
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2012, 02:19 AM »

... If you have equal length LE sections then the ferrule - and therefore the weak spot - will be in the middle where stain is greatest when the LE is bent.

Equal length 6mm pultruded spars for upper leading edge, lower leading edge, spine AND lower spreaders - Box Of Tricks!  Each of them 750 mm - only needed to carry one spare.
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Kevin Sanders

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Michel
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 04:56 AM »


I've seen most kites with longer upper leading edge than lower leading edge, but I've seen some with shorter upper leading edge and longer lower leading. Anyone knows the advantage and disadvantage on these.

If your kite is smaller than 8 feet wingspan, a full length for the Lower Leading edge is probably better because this spar is most frequently broken as the upper leading edge. And for manufacturers, that's only one spar to cut for each leading edge. And time is money !  Wink

But for more stiffness, it's much better to cut the two spars egal length.

For example : 2 x 30" leading edge is better than upper 27.5" and lower 32.5".

But you need to cut two spars... and as said, time is money !
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 04:58 AM by Tataouine » Logged
Kareloh
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 06:01 AM »

David used the full length spar for the ULE and a shorter spar for the LLE on the Magnet. The ferrule reinforces the lower APA position this way.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 08:22 AM »

Oops!
Each of the following have defined a different criterion:

Hadge: Better not place ferrule in the center because it is weakest point. better Longer spar on LLE because of easy repair
Tataouine: better to have both LE pieces equal length and have the ferule in center for more stiffness.
Kareloh: full length spar for the ULE and a shorter spar for the LLE. The ferrule reinforces the lower APA position this way.

Who do we have to listen to!   Huh
Wink

N.
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2012, 08:48 AM »

Oops!
Each of the following have defined a different criterion:

Hadge: Better not place ferrule in the center because it is weakest point. better Longer spar on LLE because of easy repair
Tataouine: better to have both LE pieces equal length and have the ferule in center for more stiffness.
Kareloh: full length spar for the ULE and a shorter spar for the LLE. The ferrule reinforces the lower APA position this way.

Who do we have to listen to!   Huh
Wink

N.

Looks like kite design is still more of an art than science.
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Hadge
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2012, 10:38 AM »

Oops!
Each of the following have defined a different criterion:

Hadge: Better not place ferrule in the center because it is weakest point. better Longer spar on LLE because of easy repair
Tataouine: better to have both LE pieces equal length and have the ferule in center for more stiffness.
Kareloh: full length spar for the ULE and a shorter spar for the LLE. The ferrule reinforces the lower APA position this way.

Who do we have to listen to!   Huh
Wink

N.


Looks like kite design is still more of an art than science.


There isn't really a right or wrong, just different options each with their own pros and cons.

It all depends on the size of the kite, the purpose of the kite, the balance etc etc.  From a breakage point of veiw, a one piece might be best, it's very hard to break a one piece LE, but the downside is the transport length of the kite and that you're limited to using pultruded carbon as quality tubes, Skyshark/Dynamic come mostly in 32.5" lengths.

If you really want to get into it take a look at 'Swept wing stunt kites' by Mark Cotterell it's an intertesting but rather technical read.

Download Here
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Age and cunning will always overcome youth and skill!

In the bag - HQ Shadow, Prism 4D, Flying Wings Soul Mid Vent, HQ Jive (1), Spiderkites Zodarion, 'Paw' modded HQ Maestro ll, HQ Delta Hawk.
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