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Author Topic: Doug Stout's Arrow Canard build (split off from the Stunt kite design tool)  (Read 248735 times)
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coop
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« Reply #555 on: March 27, 2017, 01:32 PM »

Sweet! I look forward to it!
We have an indoor event on the 21st of April.  Smiley
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Doug S
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« Reply #556 on: April 05, 2017, 07:11 PM »

In the evening on April 1, 2017, I was fortunate to attend the Indoor Kite Fly at the Mother Brook Art & Community Center (MBA&CC), in Dedham MA.  Thank you to Kites Over New England (KONE) for sponsoring the room and to Archie Stewart for running this great indoor kite fly.  About a dozen of us attended and enjoyed flying under great indoor conditions. It was great seeing my northeastern kite flying friends, who I haven't seen since the LBI, NJ event last October 2016.  As part of this event, we introduced a newer kite flyer, Christine, to indoor kite flying, where she had a blast.  We also were able to evaluate my new Viper 36M glider kite under ideal indoor flying conditions.  My evaluation of the Viper is complete.  The Viper 36M has been vetted under clean and turbulent indoor air conditions, and it is a keeper.  The Viper 36M will augment my Bird of Prey glider kites for my indoor routines.  The following video shows two of us having fun flying my two Viper 36Ms, where the sound track ties the video together.  Archie, thank you for the video.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwj9y_lTaMmFbV9zU0NBbmpEWTg/view?usp=sharing

Prior to the beginning of the event, Archie Stewart allowed me to run through a few of my indoor routines.  Christine was there early and captured a partial video of me flying to Amazing Grace by the Celtic Woman Group. Christine, thank you for the video.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwj9y_lTaMmFT3VuUk9qa1hfRG8/view?usp=sharing

I look forward to the next indoor kite fly at MBA&CC. Hope to see you there.

Yours in kiting,

Doug
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 06:24 AM by Doug S » Logged

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Doug S
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« Reply #557 on: April 06, 2017, 08:03 AM »

As indicated in my prior post, I have completed my evaluation of new single line swept forward wing glider kite called the Viper.  For the evaluation, I used my Bird of Preys as my point of reference.  The evaluation took place under clean indoor air, and in varying air currents and turbulent conditions at several indoor venues.  The evaluation was performed by myself and several other gifted indoor kite flyers in the northeast, along with a new indoor kite flyer.

To date, I have built and evaluated three Vipers.  Two of the Vipers have a 36-inch wing span and weigh 9 grams (Viper 36M).  One Viper has an 18-inch wing span and weighs 1.4 grams.  The wing loading for the Vipers is the same as their Bird of Prey counterparts, so weight was not a factor in the evaluation process.  The evaluation focused on the Viper 36M, since that is the size one would use for indoor competitions and demonstrations.

Regarding performance, The Viper 36M has the following positive flight characteristics, when compared to the Bird of Prey 36M:

-   Slightly slower glide speed with little to no tension on the flying line.
-   Longer and flatter glide with little to no tension on the flying line, which initially was hard to believe, since the Bird of Prey 36M glide is very long and flat.
-   Same higher climb speed as the Bird of Prey 36M, during a steady and fast pull of the flying line.
-   Can be flow very slowly on a climb, without stalling and transiting into a glide.  This one was hard to believe at first, but is a joy to use during my indoor routines.
-   Very forgiving and gentle recovery from a stall.  I now us this at the end of my routines leading into a catch at the end of music.
-   More stable and forgiving to unintended line commands.  We all step on our flying line on occasion, and this one is a life saver.
-   Can be flown further from the flyer during glides and various maneuvers as the result of aggressive line commands.  This allows my routines to extend and explore the boundaries of larger indoor venues.

Regarding the Viper 18, itís a playful little glider kite for small indoor areas, and exhibits the same attributes as its bigger brother, when compared to the Bird of Prey 18.  Both 18s are fun to fly.

I love how my Bird of Prey and Viper both fly, but for a venue with any air currents, the Viper is now my first choice.  For those of us who have flown dual line stunt kites in the past, the Bird of Prey is like a trick kite that can be flown smoothly and precisely, if one is smooth and attentive to the line commands.  The Viper is like a team precision kite, which flyís smoothly and can perform more aggressive maneuvers with the right line commands.  When a new indoor kite flyer flew this past Saturday evening, they tried my various indoor glider kites and several other indoor kites provided by other attending kite flyers.  To my pleasant surprise, the new indoor kite flyer kept going back to flying my Viper 36M, and became quite proficient with it by the end of the evening.

I am in the process of having aluminum templates made for the Viper 36M and Viper 18, so I can build them for other glider kite enthuses.  Through the evaluation process that also included my X-Wing glider kite I developed before the Viper, I have more of an appreciation for the positive attributes of swept forward wings and what makes them work so well.  Based on this new knowledge and in the future, I will expand my glider kite presentation for kiting seminars.

Yours in kiting,

Doug

Viper 36M - Being flown by Doug Stout at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC on March 25, 2017


Viper 36M - Front View


Viper 18 - Front View


Viper 18 - Right Side View
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:33 AM by Doug S » Logged

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nckiter
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« Reply #558 on: April 06, 2017, 10:07 AM »

Hi Doug, been reading your reports with interest, thank you so much for sharing your journey! Do you think you will be developing the Viper into any of the larger platforms, say 60 - 96"?
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Doug S
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« Reply #559 on: April 06, 2017, 11:57 AM »

nckiter,

Great question and you are a mind reader!

During my development process for the Viper, I always sketch out a panel layout to see how it would look in a larger size, which helps me refine the shape of the glider kite.  For the indoor contest version, I reduce the number of panels down to three, while keeping the personality of the more detailed panel layout.

Before exploring the next size, I wanted to have other gifted indoor kite flyers try out the Viper 36M this past weekend, to see if they were seeing the same positive performance characteristics I was experiencing.  The positive reaction to the Viper 36M this weekend was much more than I expected, especially by a new indoor kite flyer.  The Viper 36M also surprised many when we flew demonstration performances at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington, DC on March 25, 2017.  The NASM HVAC system was on and getting stronger as the temperatures hit the 80s outside on that day.  The air currents were very entertaining during my five difference performances over the course of the day.  I was able to power this light weight 9-gram Viper 36M through the crazy air currents, while others were struggling and limited to where they could fly in our west area performance location, under the drone exhibit.  The Viper made me look really good!  As a point of reference, the Bird of Prey loves clean air and performs beautify under those conditions, but does not like crazy air currents.  It's my canary for bad air.

To answer your question, I will explore a limited number of different sizes, based on the sizes that worked the best for my Bird of Prey glider kites.  The second size was the 18, which is a pisser to fly.  The next size will have a wing span around 76 inches, which is similar to my Bird of Prey 76.  The panel layout will be a refinement of the fighter plane layout I used on my Bird of Prey 48, 62 and 96, with many panels and RWB color accents from the Air Force Thunderbirds.

Yours in kiting,

Doug
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Doug S
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« Reply #560 on: April 14, 2017, 06:37 AM »

The following provides my conceptual layout for a larger version of the Viper, using my fighter plane layout with patriotic accent colors.

Yours in kiting,

Doug

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HK-guy
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« Reply #561 on: April 20, 2017, 05:56 PM »

Thank you Mr. Doug Stout. Last night I had my first glider kite flying experience.

At first I just want a quick test on this Hawk24 polybag dummy kite at the midnight downstair of my apartment. However I ended up flying it 5 hours and back home with a sun rise. It's a wonderful night.

I never fly a glider before. But I watch quite alot on youtube.
Honestly I fly this Hawk quite well within an hour, because it's so slow so smooth and glide far and so forgiveing.
I'm in love with this dummy kite because it's performance totally out of my expectation. After 4 hours "can't stop" playing. I can fly it only one hand and use the other hand to take the below movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvv0p3TejeI

I really LOVE it and I'm now hate to call it a dummy. This is my first regular perfect glider kite.

The first mind pop in my head was the donation. Not much but I've already did it.
I can't wait to build the BOP24. Thank you doug all your kindly shares and tons of treasure knowledge.

Adam


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« Reply #562 on: April 20, 2017, 06:13 PM »

Oh yes forget to tell. The Young Heart is my song of April!! I was loop playing this song when I built the Hawk.  Smiley
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Doug S
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« Reply #563 on: April 21, 2017, 06:20 AM »

Adam,

Thank you for your post, kind words and I am happy you are enjoying your Hawk 24.

Yours in kiting,

Doug
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HK-guy
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« Reply #564 on: Today at 11:44 AM »

Just had the test flight of the BOP24. Have a quite different characteristic with the Hawk, very sensitive and weak climbing ability.
I did some tuning here and there but seems the main problem is the centre-cross too soft to hold the dihedral. The dihedral line just hold the dihedral not less then 10 degree but can't hold the dihedral flap to a bigger angle. The Hawk which have a spreader to hold the dihedral but not the same case in BOP. All the works goes to the stiffness of the centre-cross.
Now the normal flat glide will cause the wing flap to a quite big dihedral angle (around 15, the line is loose). When climbing sometimes goes to 30-40....
I think I have to find a suitable hard tube instead of the electric cord shell I used now.
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Doug S
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« Reply #565 on: Today at 02:18 PM »

HK-guy

The ultra-light Bird of Prey 18, 24, 36 and 48s were designed around Cuben fabric, with a sail density of 0.34 oz./sq.yd.  The Cuben fabric is stiff for it's very light weight.  If you are using a fabric that is more flexible, that may be part of the problem.  The wire insulation I have used without a problem on more than 20 Bird of Prey 24s has an OD of 0.085 inches, where the inner copper wire has an OD of 0.041 inches.  The insulation without the wire is very stiff.  For my Bird of Prey 18 and Viper 18, I use Teflon PTFE tubing, which is very stiff for its thin wall.

Please make sure you glued the stops to the wings spars, because they can move.  Also make sure you are using the battens.  Without the battens, you are wasting your time.  The only Bird of Prey that doesn't use battens is the Bird of Prey 18, due to the stiffness of the Cuben fabric.

Once you have the correct joiner material, install it on the center spine and bend it forward and slightly upward to preset the angle.  Install the wing spars and set the initial dihedral angle.  Make sure the center joiner is in the right location, so the wing spars have an slight "S" curve to them, with a taught sail.  If the center joiner is a little to close to the nose, the trailing edge of the sail will become loose.  If the center joiner is a little to close to the tail, the sail will become loose under the wing spars.  The wing spars should be in the center of the wing spar sleeve, where they enter the wing spar sleeve.  The wing spars will touch the leading edge of the wing spar sleeve once they are near the pockets for the battens.  After you set the initial dihedral angle, hang the Bird of Prey 24 by its nose and let it hang over night.  This will allow the center joiner angle to set.  The next day, recheck the dihedral angle and adjust as necessary.  Also recheck the location of the center joiner to obtain the desired sail tension.  Check the balance and adjust as necessary.

The Bird of Prey 24 is very responsive to line commands and air currents, which makes it fun to fly.  I would initially fly your Bird of Prey 24 in calm conditions, and inside if possible.  This will allow you to get use to this design.  All of the Bird of Preys have long flat glides.  To help you made the transition to the your Bird of Pure 24, move the bridle loop back 1/8 inches.  Once you get use to it, slide it back forward.   All of the Bird of Preys have light line tension, when compared to swept back wing glider kites.  Most likely you were pulling too hard on the flying line, so you could feel the same tension on the flying line like the Hawk 24.  Please note it's just a gentle light touch on the flying line.  You will be moving more flying line than you would with conventional swept back wing glider kites, because the Bird of Prey glider kites will glide over a much longer distance.

I hope the above helps you get your Bird of Prey 24 flying as designed.

Yours in kiting,

Doug
« Last Edit: Today at 02:23 PM by Doug S » Logged

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HK-guy
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« Reply #566 on: Today at 04:33 PM »

Thank you so much for the quick reply Doug.

I did almost every tuning you mentioned. Except I use polyfilm insteal of Cuben. It is lighter and softer then Cuben but I tested it's ok "non-stretch" under such light-pressure no-wind gliding.
And because I can't get the smaller spar as spec for the battens, I used a 0.5mm instead of 0.01in bar. the whole wing quite flat no loose, just the trailing edge will have quite alot wash out because the softness of the polyfilm. The same case happen on the Hawk but didn't get much problem for smooth glide.

And I checked. The wing spars didn't have an "S" curve. No matter how I adjust the centre cross position. It is because it's really not strong enough. It just bend to fit the wing spar angle so didn't creat that S curve. I must find a correct stiffness tube to replace it.

The initial dihedral angle also no problem. I did everything you mentioned to let it settle and fix in 10 degree when without pressure (as the plan bottom left diagram 4 3/16") .
As my last post said, initial dihedral angle no problem. However, the only mechanism to prevent the dihedral become bigger (when the wings under pressure and flap up) is the centre-cross, not the line. The line do nothing to prevent the wing flap up.
I must find an exactly correct striffness tube for this centre-cross. If a tube too soft, it's just like a hinge. If a tube too stiff, it may not flexible enough to let the wing dihedral have a little dynamic flexibility. So the correct striffness of this centre cross tube is quite important I think.

About the bridle adjustment. I have pigtail with loop on it every 0.5cm on bridle, dihedral line, the "T" line on the Hawk back and also the spreader tension line. And I use Blu-Tack for nose weight, L/R wing balancing. For easier adjustment.

And yes the BOP is really responsive to line commands and air currents! And also it have much less pull then the Hawk. This also cause some flying line managment failure on me. Because the less pull so small it even can't carry the line. I have to give a "quick supply" for line when it glide away. Sometimes I can't give line fast enough then I run to follow the Bird.  Smiley
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