GWTW Forum
November 22, 2014, 03:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 ... 17   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Doug Stout's Arrow Canard build (split off from the Stunt kite design tool)  (Read 36009 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mikenchico
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2174


Location: ‪‪‪‪‪‎Chico, Ca

WWW
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2013, 03:38 PM »

Doug, thanks so much for the info, hope I can get to this soon but have a transmission out in the van and my be tied up this weekend. Looks great though.

Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2013, 07:13 AM »

Mike,

The Hawk designs fly fine with convention materials, but are fast due to their sail loading.  The sail loading for my lightest Hawk with the old grey Icarex is 0.2 oz./sq.ft.  My calculations for what has been published for the iFlite (Not Vented) indicates that it has a sail loading of about 0.1 oz./sq.ft., thus I am going to put a new version of my Hawk on a diet.

I performed some weight measurements of the various types of sail material scraps I have on hand.  I use an old OHAUS 700 Triple Beam Balance.  To check the calibration the scale, I have OHAUS reference weights that go down to 1.0 gram.  The following provides the results of my measurements on 40 sq.in. pieces of each material:

Material                               Area         Weight                 Density
                                         (sq.in.)      (grams)      oz./sq.yd.    g./sq.m.
PC-31 Grey (Rect. Grid)           40             0.90          1.029          24.381
PC-31 Blue (Rect. Grid)           40             1.05          1.200          28.445
PC-31 Red (Square Grid)        40             1.00          1.143          27.091
Orcon AN-36W White              40             0.48          0.549          13.003

Based on the above, the Orcon material I purchased from Hang'em High Fabrics before Hurricane Irene looks like the way to go.  This Orcon material is what I tried before, where I was having a problem with using tape.  Does anyone know if this is the Orcon material I should be using, or is there another version that is a little stronger between the grids.

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:19 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3703


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2013, 07:29 AM »

sounds like you need to get some of the lightest weight Cuben Fiber fabric as well.....

are you able to drop the weight by scaling down the rods as well?
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2013, 08:24 AM »

Thief,

Where would I able to purchase Cuben Fiber Fabric and does anyone have the mass/area of this fabric?  I also will try and would go down a size on the carbon rods.

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:20 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3703


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2013, 08:57 AM »

Cubern Fiber material is now a North Sails product.....it is pricey....but those people who have gotten some to work with love it.....sew it...or tape and it works great....
Windfire Designs (Tim Elverston) uses it quite a bit for his super xUL kites......both single line and quad lines....
there are a few weights of the material to check out...if you search here on the forum you can find info that AE has posted about it...he uses it in his dual line kites...
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2013, 01:06 PM »

The following provides the results of my quick research for Cuben, also known as CTF3 by Cubic Tech Corp.  The following link provides the spec sheet:  http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf.

Quest Outfitters (http://www.questoutfitters.com/coated.html#CUBEN) offers the following light weight Cuben material:

     0.33 oz./sq.yd. @ $27.15/yard (54 in. wide)
     0.48 oz./sq.yd. @ $29.59/yard (54 in. wide)
     0.74 oz./sq.yd. @ $32.69/yard (54 in. wide)

Quest indicates the weights are approximate and do not provide the g./m.

ZPacks (http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml) offers the following light weight Cuben material:

     0.51 oz./sq.yd. (17.4 g./m) @ $26/yard (54 in. wide)
     0.74 oz./sq.yd. (25.4 g./m) @ $27/yard (54 in. wide)

Bear Paw (http://www.bearpawwd.com/fabrics_misc/fabrics_misc.html) also offers the same weights as above, but in increments of 1/2 yards.

     0.51 oz./sq.yd. (17.4 g./m) @ $13.50/ yard (54 in. wide)
     0.74 oz./sq.yd. (25.4 g./m) @ $14.20/ yard (54 in. wide)

Does anyone have any experience in using any of the weights listed above and what weight would you recommend?  Based on my research on the GWTW Form, the Cuben material needs to be taped and is hard to work with.  Has there been any recent use of the Cuben material where it can be sewn or is tape the way to go?  Also, is this material as fragile as the White Orcon (BMS8-142V, Type XI, CL00, AN36W) that I currently have from Hangem High Fabrics?

Thank you in advance for any support you can provide.

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:20 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2013, 04:49 PM »

While I try to figure out what to use as materials for my next Hawk, it's time to cut out the sail material for the Rapere Canard.  We are getting snow up here in the northeast.  Good time to build another kite.

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:21 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3703


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2013, 06:02 PM »

Cuben is more robust than orcon......hot cut it...cold cut it....
Tim sews it just fine....double sided tape works great too....

http://www.windfiredesigns.com/timbofolio_pages/lacewings-colorwings.html
It also takes oil paint great!
http://www.windfiredesigns.com/ColorWing-Flames/index.html

Andre's (ae) threads: http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=8863.0
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=5457.0
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6328.0
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2013, 07:03 PM »

Thief,

Thanks for the links.  When I did the search earlier today, I found the same info about Cuben before your post, but wasnt convinced with statements by ae such as Is it fragile?  Heck yes, its 11g/m2 laminate, but used correctly it will outlast your frame.  It appears that Cuben will be the way to go, since me working (poorly) with Orcon is like trying to build a kite out of a soap bubble. Cheesy

Back to hot cutting out the sail for the Rapere and I am half way done.  Its a cold winter night, its snowing, the radio is on in my work shop, and I am in kite makers heaven. Grin

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:21 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
mikenchico
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2174


Location: ‪‪‪‪‪‎Chico, Ca

WWW
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2013, 01:51 AM »

Thanks for the links on the Cuben fabric, last I looked I couldn't find any retail distributors in the US, but that was way back when it first came out. I wonder if something as small as your mini hawk really needs any reinforcing scrim though, the stresses and loads will be so light, but if your looking for reliability/longevity it might be worth the investment. John Weldon was successful finding some very thin Mylar for his miniatures, I'll have to look back on his thread to see if he mentioned his source. Without the scrim though Mylar is extremely fragile unless you reinforce the edge, strong under tension but if you nick an edge it'll rip with little force.

Logged

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2013, 07:34 AM »

Mike,

Thank you for your suggestions on the smaller version of my Hawk.  I will acquire some Cuben and smaller diameter carbon rods.  I also have access to scrap fiber optic material.

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:22 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2013, 07:36 AM »

The following provides a picture of the cut out panels for the Rapere Canard.  The front of the kite is to the top.  I will start sewing today.

Doug

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:22 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2013, 02:41 PM »

Had a delay in making kites due to a family car accident.  Our backup vehicle (1998 Jeep Cherokee) was rolled by my son, but no one was hurt.  Just took time to deal with the damaged car and find a new/used car (2007 Honda Civic EX) for my 17 year old son.

The following picture shows the Rapere sail panels sewn together.  Next I will add all of the Dacron reinforcements, and then assemble the kite.

Regarding my Hawks and thanks to guidance on this forum, I now have very light Cuben material, tedlar tape, and 0.02 and 0.03 carbon rods.  After I finish the Rapere, I will build the ultra-light version of the Little Hawk, which has a 1 foot wing span.  My calculations indicate that I should be able to make the Little Hawk with a total weight of 1 gram, which will give the Little Hawk a slightly lower (lighter) sail loading then the iFlite.

Doug

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:23 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
Doug S
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 320


Location: Byram Township, New Jersey

« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 06:59 PM »

I finished building my Rapere Canard kite this weekend.  The following provides two pictures of the assembled kite.  I let the kite hang assembled for a few days to allow the sail and stitching to stretch and settle in due to all of the sail panels.  Please let me know what you think.   Wink

It came out better than I expected and looks great when you hold it up to the light.  Glide tests in our home, along with the associated tweaking, show that this kite has potential.  When the weather cooperates up here in the northwest New Jersey, I will start the final trimming process outside.  With canard kites of this type, there are a lot of adjustments to tinker with, which I love to do.   Grin

As the weather is still very entertaining, I will now start my very light Little Hawk.

Doug


[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:24 PM by Doug S » Logged

"We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public."
coogee
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 331


Location: Sydney Australia

« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2013, 12:27 AM »

Looks very cool Doug, it should be fun!
 Mike
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 ... 17   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!