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Author Topic: Doug Stout's Arrow Canard build (split off from the Stunt kite design tool)  (Read 20726 times)
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Doug S
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« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2013, 05:44 PM »

Please note the Rapere is very sensitive to changes in wind and turbulence, due to the low dihedral angle in the rear sail.  This allows it to be very responsive.  If it starts to weave on the climb, just go lighter and be smooth on the pull.

Just flew the smaller Rapere in my front yard in turbulent air.  That was entertaining!  I moved the tow point back with a light touched, and that worked.  The smaller Rapere also flys great with only a 2 in. length of nose weight and a rearward tow point.

Just tinker with the glide in your yard or a small field.

Doug
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 07:22 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2013, 07:44 AM »

sugarbaker,

After sleeping on your trimming challenges, several things come to mind.  The Rapere is a very efficient, sensitive and balance glider kite, which when trimmed for the weather conditions will perform extremely well.  Unlike other conventional kites, the initial trimming has to be done in a certain order, which I came to realize through trial and error with my prototypes to determine the appropriate lengths for all of the connecting lines.  To help you through this painful learning curve, I offer the following results from my efforts:

After building several Raperes, I have come to realize that when we make the holes in the reinforcements for the connections lines, each location is very critical regarding the distance between the center of the hole and the edge of the sail.  This is because the connection lines that are under a bit of tension are doubled around the sail ends, which can drastically alter the length of each line, if the hole location is moved slightly inward or outward.  When I redid and doubled the reinforcements on the prototype, I moved the holes inward to the locations indicated on the plans.  I had to lengthen all of the connection lines, as indicated on the locations on the latest top view plan.  If yours are slightly different thatís not a big deal, just alter the length of the lines.  There is nothing magical about the line lengths, other than a means to set the angle between the two sails and make sure the leading and trailing edges of the front sail are under the same tension.  To perform the initial trimming of the Rapere, the following is what works for me:

1.    Before installing the spreader, make sure the center of the rear sail is just loose enough so there is minimal tension on the front and rear connecting lines.  You should be able to slide your hand between center spine and the rear sail.  This will set the rear sail angle for the next step.  When I have my Rapere dialed in, I find the rear sail in this condition when I roll up the kite to put the kite away.

2.   Install the spreader and take a look at the angle between the center line of the front sail and the center line of the rear sail called the decalage angle.  There should be a 4 degree difference.  With the fixed length center spine of 48 in., we adjust the length of the front sail front line to adjust this angle.  Donít touch the front adjustment on the rear sail at this time.  A slightly shorter line at the very front of the kite produces more center spine bow, which will cause a greater decalage angle between the sails.  This causes the kite to float and have a steep glide slope, like a passenger jet landing at an airport.  Too much angle and the kite will stall and not glide.  A slightly longer line at the very front of the kite produces less center spine bow, which will cause less of an angle between the sails.  This causes the kite to fly faster and have a longer gradual glide slope.  Too little an angle will cause the kite to dive into the ground.  When you get the angle correct, the leading edge and trailing edge of the front sail also should have about the same tension.  If the front sail trailing edge is too tight, the leading edge will sag, which is what we donít want.  Please use the top and side view plans as a point of reference to check the lengths of the connecting lines at the tips for each sail.  If your front sail length at the tips is slightly different than the plans thatís not a big deal, just adjust the length of the front sail tip connecting lines.

3.   Once the angle between the two sails is close, it is time to hand toss the kite with all of the nose weight, but without the flying line.  You can do this in a small yard or field, preferably with no wind.  At this time you can now move the rear sail front line to fine tune the kite.  At the setting in Step No. 1, you should have about 1 1/4 in. of camber in the center of the rear sail.  When you move the rear sail front line forward a small amount, this will produce a little more decalage angle, but reduce the camber in the rear sail.  This adjustment causes two changes at once, being the decalage angle between the sails and the amount of lift generated by the camber in the center of the rear sail.  Please note the second set of connecting lines at the front of the rear sail should be just taught enough so there is no slack in these lines.  When you get the kite dialed in, it should glide like a slow moving paper airplane, and then come to a gentle landing.  I have been flying my Raperes lately with the higher camber in the rear sail that lets the Rapere fly more slowly, which is a great setting for smooth light or calm wind conditions.  At this setting when I hand toss the kite, it glides for about 20 to 30 feet, slows to a stop and hovers at the landing.

4.   Once you get the Rapere dialed in, you can make a few adjustments at the field that will allow you to fine tune the Rapere to the weather conditions.  Unlike conventional aircraft where moving the center of gravity forward provides more stability, our canard tethered kites are more forgiving and fly slower when we move the center of gravity and bridle connection point slightly to the rear.  When I fly in my front yard in the evening, this is the setting I use.  In turbulent air, the Rapere will telegraph the conditions to you, which can be very entertaining.  All of the nose weight and less camber helps it penetrate these conditions.  When you have a slight breeze like your first day, using all of the nose weight with less camber is fun on about 300 feet of line, where the Rapere can hunt and cover a lot of ground.

Please keep me posted on your trimming efforts.  Whatever settings give you the desired performance is all that matters.

Thank you again for building one of my Raperes,

Doug

P.S.  In trimming a canard kite like the Rapere, there is a balance between decalage angle between the sails, center of gravity, and camber in the center of the rear sail.  When you increase the decalage angle, you need to add more nose weight to move the center of gravity forward to compensate.  When you decrease the decalage angle, you need to remove some of the nose weight to move the center of gravity to the rear to compensate.  I use the 9 in. length of nose weight and trim for a long flat glide.  This setup provides the most balance configuration over the range of wind speeds the Rapere can handle.  Once I have this accomplished, I fine tune the camber in the rear sail.  On a hard hand toss, the camber in the rear sail lifts the back of the Rapere up for a nice glide.  Once the Rapere starts to slow down, the Rapere will rotate the nose up slightly and start to float.  If there is too much decalage angle, the Rapere will nose up under a hard hand toss.  After you get your Rapere dialed in, then play with removing a small amount of the nose weight and moving the bridle connection point back about 1/4 to 1/2 inches.  As you have found out, the Rapere is quite a performer when dialed in.  My goal in designing the Rapere was to maximize the sail area for this size kite to reduce the sail loading, while providing a kite that is responsive to the wind.  The type of assembly I am using allows for many adjustments, which is a great deal of fun for this old engineer.  I learn something new every time I put a Rapere in the air.  Enjoy!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 06:52 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2013, 11:06 AM »

The following provides better pictures of my Rapere that I made with the American Cancer Society Relay for Life colors.

Doug

Bottom View:  https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSaE1ybVhtbV9KQUU/edit?usp=sharing

Side View:  https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSdlpJcGNURnU1czA/edit?usp=sharing

The attached is a picture of the bottom view.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:41 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2013, 06:39 PM »

Now to have some fun with my new 0.33 Cuben material.  The attached picture shows the templates, with the Cuben material cut out on top, for three new no/low wind kites.  The kite in the lower left is a 16 in. wing span version of my Hawk.  I call the kite in the top middle a Falcon (now called the Swift), which has a 16 in. wing span and a sail shape that is roughly a GNU Porta Hang Glider.  The GNU Porta Hang Glider has a straight leading edge and three straight sections for the trailing edge.  I added a curve to the leading and trailing edges.  I am experimenting with sail shape and the location of the spreader.  For the Swift, I moved the spreader to the quarter chord of the root (center) of the sail.  The 16 in. Hawk will be my control kite for the Swift.  The two templates on the right are a 16 in. wing span version of my Rapere Canard kite.  I just couldn't resist in trying to build a very small Rapere.

Doug
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:44 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2013, 05:50 PM »

I was able to finish two of my new Cuben Kites this weekend.  The following provides a picture of my 12 in. Hawk (top) as a point of reference, the new 16 in. Hawk (lower left), and the new 16 in. Swift (lower right, renamed from Falcon).  The 16 in. Hawk has a sail area of 87 sq.in., weighs only 1.5 grams, with a sail loading of 0.088 oz./sq.ft.  The Swift has a sail area of 81 sq.in. weighs only 1.4 grams, with a sail loading of 0.087 oz./sq.ft.  Both kites are about 17% lighter than my 12 in. Hawk (0.105 oz./sq.ft.).  The 16. in Hawk and 16. in. Swift are framed with 0.02 carbon rods.  With a wing span of 16 in., the 0.02 carbon rods are about as light as I dare go for stiffness, especially with the center spine, and are a good match with the stiff 0.33 Cuben material.

I test flew both of them on Sunday evening, and they are very nice floater/gliders.  They both are rugged, but not as stiff as the 12 in. Hawk, which is what I was looking for.  Currently, the 16 in. Hawk has a slight edge in performance, but I am still in the trimming phase.  If the weather allows, I will be performing some minor trim changes this week to optimize both designs.  Great kites to fly indoors or in very light air in your yard.  If someone wants me to post the plans, just let me know.  Just way too much fun!

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 06:36 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2013, 06:36 PM »

Have been watching your posting with interest and recently got some of this fabric.  What have you found is the best thread and such to work with this material?  I'm a new kite maker and haven't tried anything "exotic" like this yet but want to give it a go on a glider style kite.  Maybe an Urban Ninja.

Thanks in advance -
NWFlyer
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« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2013, 06:15 AM »

NW Flyer,

Thank you for your interest and welcome to the fun of no/low wind glider kites.  Regarding what type of thread, I would use a quality polyester thread as indicated in Gary Engvall's Kite Sewing 101.  The link is provided below, which I cut and pasted from the GWTW Links to Techniques Topic Page:  http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=105.0.

Kite Sewing 101:  http://members.cox.net/maggiekite/sew/sew101.html

If the link does not work, just let me know and I will email you the article.  Gary and I are from the Northeast, and his tips are great!  Gary and I go way back, and he has forgotten more about sewing than I have learned.

For my small kites, such as the Hawk and Swift, I have no problems using a quality polyester thread.  I just drop down one needle size for the Cuben material.  I have found that the thread you can purchase at a fabric store just doesnít hold up and frays during stitching, especially in the reinforcement areas.  If you can easily break the thread with your hands, donít use it on kites.  The only time I use the fabric store thread is when I apply a single layer applique, such as on my Rapere-RFL Canard and Eagle-RFL kites.  If this is your first build, I would not start off with 0.33 Cuben material.  Itís very delicate and requires careful handling.  The 0.33 Cuben, which is the lightest Cuben I have found, is like working with reinforced plastic wrap.

Most kites are designed around a certain type of fabric, and the Urban Ninja is such a kite where Thomas Horvath suggests using ripstop polyester (PC-31).  Early in my no/low wind kite adventure, I built three Urban Ninjas.  Itís a great kite to learn how to build your first no/low wind kite.  The top and bottom panels have a cut at the joining seams, which assist in providing the bow in the sail along the center spine.  This bow makes it spin like a Fighter Kite, but dampens out a long glide.  If you are set on using the 0.33 Cuben material on an Urban Ninja, you may need to join your panels together with double sided tape.  This is because there is a bit of tension on the sail material with this design.  Please note that you get only one shot to line things up with double sided tape.  The Cuben material is too fragile for any realignment.  If you go with PC-31, my recommendation is to also sew the reinforcements, such as at the nose, tips and tail, where there is a constant pressure when the kite is assembled.  I use small amounts of double sided tape to hold things in place, and then stitch.  If find that seams with just double sided tape slip through time and are a dirt/sand magnet.  If memory serves me correctly, the Urban Ninja is framed with 0.125 in. carbon tubes.  Jon T. has this carbon tube in two difference wall thicknesses.  I would suggest using the thinner wall.

Just my thoughts,

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:42 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2013, 06:22 PM »

Doug:
Thanks for the reply and all that good information.  I have now made 7 or 8 kites that have gotten progressively better and that has me thinking of trying a glider style kite.  I was intrigued by the new fabric and probably should save that for down the line and make a good RSN glider as a 1st attempt before I tackle the "flimsy" stuff.

I've been through the "101" material and number of the NW kite making workshops but my ambitions probably exceed my skills at the moment.  Anyway, I've read your postings with strong interest and I'll tackle a Cuben glider before too long.  Thanks again, NWFlyer.
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« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2013, 07:46 PM »

NWFlyer,

Thank you for informing me about your level of kite building experience.  It's time to jump in and enjoy the glider fun.  The following provides some questions that will help you select a type of glider kite design:

ē   What size kite are you interested in?
ē   Do you want a floater, one that covers a little ground, or both?
ē   Do you want to fly it only indoors, only outdoors, or have the ability to do both?
ē   Do you want a single sail or a canard?

I have designed and built glider kites with wing spans ranging from 12 in. to 8 feet, with the smaller kites using Cuben and the larger kites using PC-31.  If you are interested, I may have a design that would be good for your first build.  Just let me know if you are interested.

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:43 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2013, 10:11 PM »

Doug:
Man, you are going to be sick of me if you keep replying to my posts that quickly !.

As for my first glider - I'd like to make something on the order of 1 3-4 ft. wing span, pretty much exclusively for outdoor flying.  I'm not into indoor flying particularly, and part of my motivation stems from a background with balsa wood gliders and tissue covered/rubber powered plans that I fly with my Father.  We each have a Horvath glider that we both really enjoy flying and that was why I was thinking an Urban Ninja would be a good one to start with.  They float and glide nicely and are really relaxing on a low wind day.

I've slowly accumulated a nice stock of fabric including getting some Icarex just recently.  I also have a good selection of 3/4 oz. RSN, and a little bit of AirX 600.  I doubt I have any of the lightweight framing or fittings needed and will have to get those regardless of what I make.

So, with that, would you suggest something other than a Ninja or is that a good one to tackle for a first attempt?
Thanks in advance,
NWFlyer
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« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2013, 08:07 AM »

NWFlyer,

I would never get sick of questions from an enthusiastic kite flyer.  Thatís great to hear you and your Dad are model airplane flyers.  I flew control line precision aerobatics in the 1960s-1970s and RC sailplanes in the 1980s.  My allergy to balsa dust was just too much for me to deal with.  It was easy for me to transition into stunt kites in the 1990s.  About three years ago, I got tired of waiting for the right wind conditions to fly my stunt kites of various weights.  Thatís when I got hooked on the glider kites.  Now I design and build glider kites to fit the light wind conditions for where I live, so I can fly almost anytime I want to.  Originally, I build larger high aspect ratio glider kites (Osprey at 8 ft., Eagle at 8 ft. and Falcon at 64.5 in.) to fly and chase thermals at our local sports field complex (20 acres).  My recent endeavors (Hawk of various sizes and the Swift) allow me to fly after work right in my front yard (65 ft. x 50 ft.), which flying area is best suited for small wing span, low aspect ratio glider kites.  My Rapere Canard kites (42 and 30 in.) fly well at both locations.

Which Horvath kite do you have so we can see what type glider you are used to?  You want to size the glider kite for the size field that is available to you.  Low aspect ratio kites, such as Thomas Horvathís Urban Ninja, my Hawks and Swift, have aspect ratios [(wing span x wing span)/sail area] less than 3 to 1.  They have more sail area for a given wing span, that allow for a slower flying speed (float) when trimmed correctly, and are very responsive.  With a low aspect ratio configuration, you can build a kite with a very low sail loading (mass/sail area), which further reduces the flying speed.  If you are looking to cover ground, go hunting and chase thermals, then high aspect ratio kites are the way to go.  Kites such as Thomas Horvathís Long Way Home, my Osprey, Eagle and Falcon, have aspect ratios greater than 6 to 1, are very efficient for gliding, have a faster flying speed, but need space to fly and turn.

If you are flying only outdoors in a normal size sports field to fly at (2 acres), then 3 to 4 foot wing span kite should work for you, and the Urban Ninja with a wing span of 53.5 in. would be a good kite to start with.  A scaled up version of my Hawk also would be a great kite, but I wouldnít offer the plans until I built one myself.  Regarding sail loading, I built my Urban Ninjas a little heavy at 60 oz. using PC-31 and extra reinforcements, which equates to 0.286 oz./sq.ft.  As a point of reference, my Eagle and Falcon are also made using PC-31 and have sail loadings of 0.365 and 0.310 oz./sq.ft., respectively.  These sail loadings may seem a little high, but these kites are very efficient with their high aspect sails.  This sail loading equates to higher flying speeds, which helps them cut through the light turbulent air associated with thermals.  As indicated in a previous post, I have been able to reduce sail loading to as low as 0.088 oz./sq.ft. for my 16 in. Hawk.  The major portion of the weight savings was due to using the 0.33 Cuben fabric.  Based on my measurements, the 0.33 Cuben fabric is only 37% of the weight of PC-31.  This allowed me to build my 12 in. and 16 in. Hawks light and rugged.  If itís your desire to fly in light winds, then I would use the PC-31 or similar type of fabric.  Plus, you have a selection of colors to choose from.  If you are looking to fly primarily in no wind conditions, then I would use one of the lighter Cuben fabrics, which are offered in different weights.  Unfortunately, the Cuben fabric is offer in very limited and bland colors.  Regarding carbon tubes, I built my Urban Ninjas with the light wall 0.125 carbon tubes.  If you decide to go with the very light fabric, you also want to reduce the weight of the frame.  Jon T. has some smaller diameter carbon tubes (0.08 and 0.098 in.), which I used in my 64.5 in. Falcon and my 30 in. Rapere.  The Falcon weights 38.1 grams and was built with a thin wall 0.125 in. center spine, 0.098 in. wing spars, and a 0.08 in spreader.  The 30 in. Rapere weighs 21 grams and was built with the 0.08 in. carbon tubes.

In closing, you may want to build your first Unban Ninja using PC-31 and the thin wall 0.125 in. carbon tubes.  If you want to build a second lighter version, you may want to use a fabric like Cuben, and lighter carbon tubes for the wing spars and spreader.

Just my thoughts,

Doug
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 08:14 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2013, 08:29 PM »

Doug:

Again, thanks for all the good information.  Sounds like you've really zeroed in on these types of kites.  Right now, I have to say I like all kinds !!

Dad and I each have Horvath C'Est La Vie kites and Dad liked his so much he had me get him a Line a Rolling Stone" kite to give you a sense of what we're use to.  We both fly in large enough areas that space isn't a limitation (within reason) so a kite that's 4-5 ft. wing span (or smaller) sounds right.  For now, a lower aspect ratio kite sounds like the way to go, although eventually, I've got to try making a multi-wing surface glider like a Canard.

Unless you'd advise me not to, I think start with a Ninja to get some more practice on nice straight seams and edge binding and I'll try making it out of Icarex since I have yet to make anything with that and am itching to try it.  Who do you like to order small tubes and parts from?  Horvath and others seem to make their own fittings to get some really nice small fittings.  I've found it surprising how hard it is get kite making materials in my fledgling "career".

One question I've wondered about (among many) has to do with applique and for something like a Ninja whether you'd recommend doing some applique after you've sewed up the center seams or before?  I can convince myself of doing it both ways.  I'm concerned about getting a "lumpy" or puckered sail.

Thanks again, Doug.  Really appreciate your advice.
NWFlyer

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« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2013, 10:50 AM »

NWFlyer,

The Thomas Horvath kite that you are flying (c'est la vie) and the one you got for your Dad (like a rolling stone) have an aspect ratio of about 6.25 to 1, which is much higher than the Urban Ninja at about 2.61 to 1.  The two models of the Horvath Kites you are flying are smaller versions of his ďlong way homeĒ.  When you compare these kites to the urban ninja, you will find that the urban ninja will most likely fly in lighter air, be more responsive, fly slower, but not cover as much ground.

I agree that you should begin your glider building endeavors by building the urban ninja, so that you can see how to build this type of kite.  For your information, all I do is straight stitching because itís stronger, lighter and thatís all my old Singer sewing machine is capable of.  Someday I will pick up a higher end used machine with more features.  Just take your time when sewing the straight stitches.  I use pinstripe tape on the table of my sewing machine, at a distance of 3/16 and 1/4 inches from the needle, which I use as one of my guides for the seams.  The attached picture is of my first urban ninja.

Regarding materials, I purchase most of my materials from Jon and Marieanne Trennepohl
at: http://www.kitesandfunthings.com/.  They have the carbon tubes and fittings that you will need.  If they donít have it, they most likely can get it for you.  There are other sources for materials, with links along the right side of this great Forum.

Regarding your question about applique, my recommendation is not to bother at this time.  The urban ninja can be made with three different colors, which should provide you with more than enough personal variation.  A glider is a performance kite and an applique just adds unnecessary weight due to additional material and thread.  For example, the 14 panel version of my Rapere weights 47.8 grams.  The 6 panel version of my Rapere with the ribbon applique for American Cancer Society Relay for Life event weighs 49.3 grams.  That is 1.5 grams more for a 6 panel kite that has many less seams than the 14 panel kite.

When I do make a special event kite with an applique, I add it after the panels are all sewn together.  I carefully hold the applique in place with many small strips of blue masking tape, and then remove each piece of masking tape when I get to it during the sewing process.  I have tried double sided tape and glue stick techniques, but didnít like the finished appearance.  The additional pictures of the Rapere-RFL (with the ribbon) provided in a previous post has a new rear sail for this reason.  The original rear sail is hanging in my work shop as a reminder not to do it that way again.  I did use a glue stick for the 1/8 in. white stripes that separate the panels, since I couldnít figure out another way to do this and make the lines straight.

After you build and fly your urban ninja, let me know which style of glider kites you like better (low aspect ratio vs. high aspect ratio).  I draft all of my kites in AutoCAD and if you like, I can send you a PDF of the full size plans for one of my designs that may be to your liking.  Welcome to the addiction of glider kites!

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:06 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2013, 06:28 PM »

I am in Light Wind Kite Heaven!  Flew my 16 in. Hawak and 16. in. Swift again in my front yard tonight (7:30 to 8:30 p.m. EST) to trim them out.  Used my iFlite as a point of reference.  The wind was calm, with a very slight wind cycling through due to evening thermals.  The cycle of lift was about every 5 minutes.  Temperature was in the low 80s.  Please note that I live inland and not near the shore.  I rotated using each of the three kites to fly them in the various air conditions.  I used 10 lb. spectra line and my flying area is about 65 ft. x 50 ft.

The iFlite flew well as it does indoors.  I was able to get the iFlite to about 15 to 20 feet, but it just wanted to fly mostly in a stable straight line, and not turn with the lifting air.  It actually flew through or turn away from the lifting air a few times.  My 16 in. Swift handle the air conditions better.  I was able to get my 16 in. Swift to about 20 to 25 feet, it was feeling the changes in the air currents and turning with it.  Then there was my 16 in. Hawk.  The 16 in. Hawk climbed very well and road several thermals just like a small real Hawk.  It turned with the air currents, circled in the lifting air, and changed circling directions within the lifting air.  It was one of those mouth wide open moments!  I stopped the Hawk from climbing each time at about 40 to 50 feet, and pulled it forward and out of the lifting air so I didnít lose it on the my roof or the surrounding trees.  It rode the down currents and glided between 5 and 15 feet until the next lifting air cycle arrived.

Just way too much fun for one hour of flying in the evening!  In conclusion, I am done trimming my 16 in. Hawk!

Doug
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 04:59 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2013, 06:51 PM »

Doug:

Sounds like you had a nice session with your new kites.  It's always fun when everything comes together like that.

Thanks for confirming my plan of action and for the offer of plan on down the line.  That would be neat.

I'll get some framing and fitting materials coming to frame up a couple of Ninja's since I know I'll want to make more than one.  I'll forgo the notion of applique for these two and save that for a Rok or something else.  I've looked over the Kitebuilder forum that discussed the Ninja workshop session that provided some good information so I've got no excuse but to get after it it seems.  When I have made some progress worth talking about or run into a question I can't answer I'll get back with you. In  the meantime, enjoy your new kites.  They sound fun.

Thanks again,
NWFlyer
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