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Author Topic: Doug Stout's Arrow Canard build (split off from the Stunt kite design tool)  (Read 25880 times)
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Doug S
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« Reply #165 on: February 21, 2014, 07:15 PM »

The attached picture shows the sails I just hot cut out for three 24 inch ultra-light Birds of Prey for fellow kite glider enthusiasts and my prototype ultra-light 48 inch Bird of Prey (the large one).  Several people have asked, and at their request, I am building a limited number of the Bird of Prey 24 for others.  The sail material is 0.35 oz./sq.yd. Cubic Tech Cuben fabric.  The color is orange, which I am finding to be a better laminate than the whitish/grey material.  Due to the light weight of this material, the orange is very light in color and looks great in the air.  The good news is the sail material for each color weighs the same, even though the orange feels a little stiffer.  I have had issues with the whitish/grey material and had to toss a couple sails that were in process, which is very painful due to the cost of this fabric at 25 to 30 dollars/yard.  Thief's Bird of Prey that he posted under the Single Line section of this forum is made from the orange Cuben fabric.  Thank you to thief for asking me to build my Bird of Prey 24 for him in the orange Cuben fabric, which will be the material I will use going forward.

The following link provides my recent video of my Bird of Prey 24 in flight, which is made from the whitish/grey Cuben fabric.  Under the Single Line Section of this forum is my discussion regarding the fun I had making the video.  Out of all of my glider kites, this one is my favorite.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSWjliWXlmNHVBN0k/edit?usp=sharing

As indicated under the Single Line Section of this forum, the 48 and 62 inch sizes made from PC31 in multi-colors are a work in process.  They glide great, but I need to wait until the snow clears at our local sports fields to get a better launch.  Using the PC31, the sail loading is higher and more typical for a glider kite of their respective sizes, so they need more room to run.  The ever tinkering engineer in me is building an ultra-light version of the 48 inch to see what it can do in small areas, which sail is show in the attached picture.  I hope to reduce the weight of the 48 inch kite by about 45 percent, mostly due to using the Cuben fabric and one panel of sail material.

Thank you again for your interest,

Doug
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:21 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #166 on: February 23, 2014, 11:24 AM »

The following provides a second video I shot today at a higher resolution.  Very light wind out of a different direction.  Blondfire again for the music, this time the song in the first one on their new album.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSeV96SmkwdXJ6REE/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you again and enjoy!

Doug
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« Reply #167 on: February 25, 2014, 06:25 PM »

The ever tinkering engineer in me couldn't resist.  I make a set of plans for an ultra-light version of the Bird of Prey with a wing span of 36 inches, which is just the right size for the amount of whitish/grey Cuben fabric I have left.  I have a bunch of BOPs I need to build. Cheesy

Update:  I just received the 0.059 in. carbon tubes.  One word, wow!

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:04 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: March 08, 2014, 05:38 AM »

Finishing up a few Bird of Prey 24s today for fellow glider kite enthusiasts.  Really do like the texture of the orange Cuben fabric, as compared to the white.  For the same weight, the orange is more durable to work with during the building process.  I also started the 36 and 48 in. ultra-light versions.  Using up my white Cuben on the 36, and have to be careful during the build.  Roll Eyes   Will post pictures in the near future.

Once I get all of the Birds of Prey in the air, I will finally build my X-29 canard glider kite and my stunt kite version of the Rapere.  Itís been a very productive winter for kite building.  Grin

Just waiting for more snow to melt, so I can fly my glider kite air force outside (Birds of Prey, Hawks, Falcons, Eagles and Osprey single sail gliders, and Raperes, X-29 and Arrow canard gliders).  My Birds of Prey and Hawks are keeping me entertained while indoors.  Cheesy

Later,

Doug
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« Reply #169 on: March 22, 2014, 07:29 AM »

While cleaning up my workshop from the recent Bird of Prey development and builds, I came across the completed sails for a second Rapere-CS ultra-light canard that I started the end of last year.  Since this kite takes a bit of time to assemble, Iíve been ignoring it in my shop.  This little kite is the smaller version of my Raperes, where I have offered the plans on this great Forum.  I scaled down this design for flying in small areas and indoors.  It has a wing span of 16.5 in. and weighs only 3.0 grams.  The sail is made from Cuben fabric, with 0.04 in. carbon rods for the center spine and spreader, a 0.02 in. carbon rod for the forward sail center spine, and 0.01 in. carbon rods for the tip battens.  Itís a slow assembly process with all of the little short length lines and the numerous stops.  I had a senior moment while building the prototype and forgot to write down the line lengths I worked out, so it was a bit of trial and error to match the prototype.  Very therapeutic and tedious work.  I build a second one because itís such a fun little kite to fly.  And yes, I have written down the lengths for all of the little lines.  The attached picture shows the new Rapere-CS, with the prototype for this kite in the background.

Regarding the ultra-light Bird of Preys (BOP), the 48 in. wing span version flyís great!  Waiting for Mother Nature to behave, so I can fine tune the location of the center of gravity.  Right now I think itís right on the mark, but will move it just to confirm I found the sweet spot for gliding.  I have been flying it with my 10 lb. spectra line, which may be too light for this kite.  Flying line on a glider kite moves the center of gravity forward, depending on the weight and drag of the flying line.  This also changes in flight as the result of the flying line length between you and the kite in flight.  The goal is to use the lightest and thinnest flying line you can, which reduces the unnecessary weight and drag that the glider kite needs to lift and drag through the air.  In doing so, you need to dial in the center of gravity, once you have the best line for your kite.  Will be purchasing a spool of 20 lb. spectra flying line to give that a try.  Want to take some in flight pictures and maybe a video, but Mother Nature is not cooperating again.  I used the DPP 0.059 in. carbon tubes from CST in the BOP48, which I am extremely pleased with.  You can bend this carbon tube in an 18 in. diameter circle without braking or cracking the tube.  Unbelievable!  They are a little pricy, but well worth the cost.  Whatís that saying, you get what you pay for.

The 36 in. wing span BOP is going to be reframed.  Trying to go ultra-light, I built it with 0.04 in. carbon rods, which are just too flexible for the wing spars when the kite is under load during a climb.  It does glide very well like its BOP24 and BOP48 brothers.  Spoke with CST this week and they have a DPP carbon tube with a 0.039 in. diameter in stock.  In their quick side by side comparison they did for me at their shop, this carbon tube is actually stiffer than their equivalent carbon rod.  Very interesting!  It also is 25% lighter than the equivalent carbon rod I used.  My goal is to make the wing spars a little stiffer, while maintaining the kites ultra-light sail loading.  As a last resort, I could reframe with 0.05 in. carbon rods, but that would increase the weight of the kite by 1.64 grams.  I ordered some DPP 0.039 in. carbon tubes, along with a few other sizes (0.028, 0.079 and 0.098 in.) to give them a try.  They should arrive sometime this coming week, and I will do my own side by side comparison before reframing the BOP36.  I may get really bold and build another BOP24 for me with 0.028 in. carbon tubes to see what it can do.  It will reduce the weight of the BOP24 from 2.7 to 2.5 grams.  Not sure about the stiffness until I build the kite, but we will see.  The larger diameter DPP carbon tubes may be going in my completed multi-color BOPs, with wing spans of 48 and 62 inches.

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:32 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #170 on: March 22, 2014, 07:47 AM »

Good stuff, thanks for the updates.  Cool  Framing and design tradeoffs are always interesting...
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« Reply #171 on: March 29, 2014, 06:31 PM »

Received my CST order this week.  Spent last night and today performing a deflection evaluation of carbon rods, with diameters ranging from 0.03 to 0.098 inches.  Also performed the same evaluation of carbon tubes, with diameters ranging from 0.028 to 0.098 inches.  A little punchy from taking all of the measurements and entering the results into an Excel spreadsheet, but it was well worth the effort.  As part of the evaluation, performed the following:

-   Measured the actual diameter of the selected rod or tube and calculated the cross sectional area.
-   Measured the actual mass of the selected rod or tube to calculate the density (grams/inch of length).
-   Measured the deflection at distance of 10 inches of exposed rod or tube, using 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 50 gram OHAUS weights.  The rod or tube was carefully held in place with 10 1/8 inches of exposed material.  The selected weights were suspended at the end of the exposed rod 1/8 inches from the end.

Selected distance of 10 inches based on wanting to keep the same moment distance for all of the rod and tube measurements.  The small diameter rods and tubes would bend far more than what would be experienced in my ultra-light glider kites.  Please note for the small diameter rods and tubes, could only use weights up to 5 grams, but was able to measure a minimum of three different weights for each rod or tube.  With these measurements, observed maximum deflections ranging from 3.16 degrees for the 0.098 inch carbon rod with 50 grams of weight, to 30.58 degrees for the 0.03 inch carbon rod with 5 grams of weight.  The 0.03 inch carbon rod is used for my Bird of Prey 24 (BOP24).  Will post the findings in the future, once the preliminary tables and charts have been refined.

Regarding the Bird of Prey 36 (BOP36), removed the 0.04 inch carbon rods, which had an actual diameter of 0.0395 inches.  The new frame is the CST 503 carbon tubes with a measured diameter of 0.0395 inches.  Based on my measurements, the CST 503 carbon tubes were 15.8% stiffer (less deflection) and 30.4% lighter that the 0.04 inch carbon rods.  The goal was not to reduce the weight of the BOP36, but install a stiffer frame.  The total weight of the Bird of Prey 36 is now only 5.7 grams with a sail loading of 0.0195 grams/sq.in. of projected sail area.  In the end, the BOP36 lost 0.1 gram of weight.

The true test was how did the BOP36 fly?  Since Mother Nature is at it again in the northeast with high winds and rain, flew the BOP36 in my family room and I could not be more pleased!  The frame is now holding the sail taught under load and I can zip this 36 inch wing span kite around, just like its little brother (BOP24).  Under light line tension, the BOP36 has a very slow flat glide.

Based on my deflection evaluation, most likely will be reframing some of my other BOPs with these high quality CST carbon tubes.  These tubes are more durable and will go into my BOP48 and BOP62, which are made from PC31.  Also will try the small diameter in a new BOP24.

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 10:08 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #172 on: March 30, 2014, 06:08 AM »

The following link provides access to the subject chart, so you can see the preliminary results from my measurements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSMjcteEZ5WS1nbTA/edit?usp=sharing

Working on a table of the measurements and calculations, along with other charts.  The micro carbon rods obtained from various sources in our kiting industry over the past 5 years, such as Kites and Fun Things and Goodwind Kites.  The micro carbon tubes were obtained from Kites and Fun Things.  The items identified with "CST" were obtained from CST, The Composite Store.

Enjoy,

Doug
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 10:04 AM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #173 on: April 04, 2014, 04:34 PM »

I reframed the Bird of Prey (BOP) 48 and 62 that were made with multi-colored PC31.  The new frames that I used and indicated in my recent prior posts are CSTís DPPô Pultrusion Carbon Tubes.

On the BOP 48, I replaced the frame with T505 0.079 in. carbon tubes, which reduced the weight of the kite from 32.5 to 31.3 grams or by 3.8%.  My goal was not to reduce the weight of the kite, but use what I hope is a more durable carbon tube.  On a hard accidental pull with the old frame, I split the old tube just outside of the center joiner.  Flew the BOP48 last night and have the center of gravity dialed in.  This kite is very responsive and fun to fly in a light breeze, with a typical sail loading for a PC31 gilder kite.  Having a higher sail loading of 0.0602 grams/square inch (g./sq.in.) of projected sail area, you have to give this kite a little more room to turn.  Smooth and controlled line inputs provide very rewarding responses from this kite.  This is because this BOP48e kite with its higher sail loading glides faster than the version made with the Cuben fabric, 0.059 in. carbon tubes, which only weighs 11.3 grams.  Also, for this sail loading, I am finding that a static margin around 2% works best, whereas for the ultra-light versions of the BOP, a static margin closer to 1% works best.

Regarding the BOP62, I replaced the frame with the T506 0.098 in. carbon tubes, which reduced the weight of the kite from 57.9 to 52.7 grams or by 9.9%.  The revised sail loading is 0.0608 g./sq.in.  Most of the weight reduction was from reducing the diameter of the center spine from 0.125 in. to 0.098 in.  The 0.125 in. center spine was too stiff and was not allowing enough of bow along the center of the sail.  Also, this kite was a little nose heavy, so I removed some of the nose weight.  On a glide, the BOP62 is very majestic due to its size, but I need to make some additional fine adjustments to see if I can get it to perform like the spunky BOP48.  Looking to make it a little less stable and a little more responsive on the flying line.  Spent last night matching the setup from the BOP48, regarding the static margin, and wing spar and batten tension on the sail.  Waiting for Mother Nature to behave again to test fly this larger BOP.

Later,

Doug
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 06:44 PM by Doug S » Logged

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« Reply #174 on: April 04, 2014, 04:49 PM »




                   Awesome work!
                 
                    Mike
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« Reply #175 on: April 05, 2014, 06:31 AM »

Downloaded your table, thanks!  We work in very different kite building worlds.  Kind of like a Gossamer Eagle and a Cessna Citation Smiley  Both designs very good at what they do...

The following link provides access to the subject chart, so you can see the preliminary results from my measurements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_TPx1W-lkmSMjcteEZ5WS1nbTA/edit?usp=sharing

Working on a table of the measurements and calculations, along with other charts.  The micro carbon rods obtained from various sources in our kiting industry over the past 5 years, such as Kites and Fun Things and Goodwind Kites.  The micro carbon tubes were obtained from Kites and Fun Things.  The items identified with "CST" were obtained from CST, The Composite Store.

Enjoy,

Doug
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 07:17 AM by stapp59 » Logged

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« Reply #176 on: April 05, 2014, 07:44 AM »

Mike and Steve, thank you for your kind words.  Regarding the deflection results, I haven't had time to prepare a summary version of the table for others to use, along with other charts.  Hope to have them available this coming week.  My analysis helped me objectively reframe a couple of my Birds of Prey (BOP).  Just the engineer in me, doing my thing.

I am waiting for a shipment of orange Cuben so that I can try out the 0.028 in. carbon tubes in a new BOP24.  Itís going to be hard to top the current BOP24 configuration, which is still my favorite glider kite to fly.  Since I am building another one for me, let me know if anyone is interested in a BOP24.  If so, just send me a PM and I will build you one.

This coming week, I hopefully will get to the X-29 canard kite.  Trying to get my current projects built and dialed in for the 24th Annual Kite Day in the Park, which is on May 3, 2014 at Louise W. Moore Park in Easton, Pennsylvania.  The attached file provides a copy of the event information.  I usually bring three bags of different kites (single line gliders, single line kites and stunt kites).  This year my car will be very full with various flying toys.

Steve, as you know, I also love to fly stunt kites, but my style is old school precision.  In the next few months, I plan on teaching these old hands some of the new tricks with two great custom kites that I acquired from Jon (Solus) and Will (Saber II).  Most likely will be purchasing one of Jonís Auras in the near future.  If successful at learning the new tricks, who knows, maybe I will build some using available plans developed by others and develop one of my own.

Later,

Doug
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« Reply #177 on: April 24, 2014, 06:16 AM »

Over the past two weeks while recovering from the flu, I had some quality flying time on the multi-color PC31 versions of the Bird of Prey (BOP), which have wing spans of 48 and 62 inches.  They are both dialed in and are a joy to fly.  The new carbon tube frames were an enhancement.  I also installed heat shrink tubing around the wing spars, at the point where they are inserted into the center joiner.  There was a hard pressure point at the end of the white PVC center joiner tubing that was causing the prior hollow tubes to be crushed when too much force was applied to the flying line.  The heat shrink tubing was carefully applied with a hair drier and made a better fit, while provided padded reinforcement around this pressure point.  I have strongly pulled on the flying line for these two kites and havenít broken anything.  The final static margin for these two kites is about 2%, which allows these glider kites to be responsive and have a nice flat glide for this style glider kite.  During the trimming process, I tried a lower static margin of 1% (more nose heavy), but it made these two kites too stable due to the forward inertia from the higher sail loadings.  The BOP 62 is majestic in the air, while the BOP 48 is very responsive and fun to abuse in the air.  During one of the trimming flights, the BOP 48 got caught in a thermal and went straight up to 60 feet in my front yard, where I had to pull it down before it ended up in a tree.  If the wind cooperates this coming weekend, I hope to shot some video of these kites in the air.

For the ultra-light versions of the BOP made with Cuben, I determined in the past that a static margin of about 1% was the best to this style glider kite, which makes the kite slightly more nose heavy than the PC31 versions.  Due to the ultra-light sail loading of the Cuben versions, the lower static margin allows these glider kites to have more forward inertia for a flatter and longer glide, yet still be very responsive due to their low sail loadings. I did test the center of gravity a little more to the rear, with a static margin of about 2%.  The result was a slower steeper glide angle, with the nose of the kite pointing a little higher in the air.  The 2% static margin moved the point on the Lift to Drag (L/D) curve to the location of minimal sink, but not ideal to cover ground as a glider.

I am in the process of building a few more BOP-24s, one with 0.028 inch diameter carbon tubes.  One of the BOP 24s will be for a young lady who will use it for a stage performance at the Eugene O'Neill Theatre in New York City, which is quite cool.

Someday in the near future I will get back to building the X-29 Canard Kite.

As indicated in the Kite Land Event section of this forum, on May 3, 2014 the Pocono Kite Symphony/Lehigh Valley Kite Society will be hosting their 24th Kite Day in the Park Event, at the Louise W. Moore Park in Easton, PA.  I attended the event over the past few years and had a very enjoyable experience with other kite fliers.  As in the past, my car will be loaded with at least three bags of kites (single line glider kites, single line kites and stunt kites), so I am prepared for whatever Mother Nature throws our way.  I hope the wind will be light at some point during the day, so I can fly my glider kites discussed on this forum.  Hope to see you there.

Later,

Doug
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« Reply #178 on: April 24, 2014, 07:01 AM »

It will be interesting to see how you approach the various design tradeoffs Doug on a sport kite that makes 3D tricks accessible yet still flies as well as the old school classics.  Seems an elusive combination...

Sorry to hear about the flu. Ugh.

Steve, as you know, I also love to fly stunt kites, but my style is old school precision.  In the next few months, I plan on teaching these old hands some of the new tricks with two great custom kites that I acquired from Jon (Solus) and Will (Saber II).  Most likely will be purchasing one of Jonís Auras in the near future.  If successful at learning the new tricks, who knows, maybe I will build some using available plans developed by others and develop one of my own.

Later,

Doug
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« Reply #179 on: April 24, 2014, 10:11 AM »

Steve,

With the wind blowing outside and the warmer weather now here, I got the itch to get out and play with my stunt kites again.  As with any flying object, there are tradeoffs to maintain the various desired performance aspects of a design.  Then you try to balance these attributes over a wide range of wind speeds, where the wind force on the kite is squared as you double the wind speed.  You are seeing that with your own experiments.  I keep in the back of my mind that great phrase in the late Billy Prestonís song, Nothiní from nothiní leaves nothiní. Cheesy  Being a ďthink out of the boxĒ engineer, ďelusiveĒ is just another challenge to explore.  As you know that on a whim, I experimented with a swept forward wing glider kite just to see if I could get one to fly.  I shared the initial concept with Thief last fall and I think he thought I was a little crazy.  With a little bit of engineering, along with experimenting with material types and new construction techniques, the dam thing flies far better than I ever expected.  Now I have a squadron of different size Bird of Preys to play with.   Grin

As indicated in my previous post, I need to get these old hands to learn the current repertoire of slack line tricks.  Once I get some quality time on the two great stunt kites I acquired from by Jon (Solus) and Will (Saber II), I will look at Geokite to see what I need to add to the program.  The goal will be to add calculations to the program that can quantify the various aspects of a stunt kite that allow for the various slack line tricks.  Currently, Geokite does a great job for tight line old school maneuvers.  The effects of tail weight in the current breed of stunt kite are easy to calculate, using the simple moment of inertia equation:  (Distance from the center of gravity of the kite to the center of mass for the tail weight) squared, and then times the mass of the tail weight.

After some flying this spring and early summer, I hope to explore the design aspects of a new breed of stunt kite.  Not sure where the path will lead me, but it will be a fun journey. Wink  As indicated by my posts on this great forum, I will be pleased share the results of my engineering efforts.

Later,

Doug
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